Archives

I've got a 05 Yamaha TW200. I tried running just a little bit of E85 in it. I had no luck. The bike already runs so lean that the introduction of a fuel that requires more fuel per air and it just won't run. I even mixed it down as low as E25 and I couldn't hardly get it to run. It was funny, though. It would start and idle like a champ but crack on the throttle and it was like turning off the key. fuel:air would just drop below anything considered combustible.

HOWEVER...

Just today, I had someone say that they heard that with the Kehin carbs you could run with the choke on. Understand, the newer Kehins don't have a "choke" in a traditional sense. They have an "enrichening valve" that opens when you pull the knob out.

Has anyone tried this or heard any info on it. I'd like to try some corn squeezins in her. Once I finish out this tank full, I may blow off the next one just to experiment with E85.

Any info will be helpful.

Thanks.

Hi TheRider--

Although it's good to experiment with alternative fuels I in the strongest manner possible urge you not to use E85 in your vehicle! Apart from the possible damage to your motorcycle's engine there's the huge costs associated with any amount of ethanol. You're paying well north of $5 per gallon for E85 because ethanol is currently subsidized to the tune of $1.50 per gallon by the government...in other words our taxpayer dollars. That and the $10 billion a year in subsidies to Archer Daniels Midland and their associated lobbyists. A gallon of ethanol requires 1700 gallons of water plus a similar amount of oil (in farming, processing, and than transporting--read, trucking it! to the gas station). And then a gallon of ethanol created from corn is a whole lot of corn not feeding people's mouths. By knowing and willfully using ethanol you'd just be playing into their trap. :(

WARNING: The subject of this message should probably be moved to some other section of the forum. Don't know how to do it so I'm dropping it here. All intelligent arguments criticizing my facts or opinions will be accepted. Name calling and insults will be ignored. I am in no way insulting or discounting any of lamebums' opinions or facts. Some of which are correct, some of which are not and yet other that don't matter.That being said, lets rock!

Hi TheRider--

Although it's good to experiment with alternative fuels I in the strongest manner possible urge you not to use E85 in your vehicle! Apart from the possible damage to your motorcycle's engine there's the huge costs associated with any amount of ethanol. You're paying well north of $5 per gallon for E85 because ethanol is currently subsidized to the tune of $1.50 per gallon by the government...in other words our taxpayer dollars. That and the $10 billion a year in subsidies to Archer Daniels Midland and their associated lobbyists. A gallon of ethanol requires 1700 gallons of water plus a similar amount of oil (in farming, processing, and than transporting--read, trucking it! to the gas station). And then a gallon of ethanol created from corn is a whole lot of corn not feeding people's mouths. By knowing and willfully using ethanol you'd just be playing into their trap. :(

I don't recommend anyone use E85 unless you know what you are doing. Just like you wouldn't try to climb Mt. Everest unless you were an experience climber, don't try E85 unless you know what you're getting into. I've had almost 35 years of experience with building, fixing, modifying and designing all kinds of systems for engines in a shade tree mechanic environment. I don't do this like some guy that just bought a gas can and wants pour ethanol into his bike.

Being a former farmer (forced out by corn being the same price in 2004 as it was in 1950), I would really like to open up this for debate. Lets take it point by point. Beware, I've done extensive first hand research and testing that may or may not put you at a disadvantage.

Bad is bad and good is good. In my opinion, no industry, farming or otherwise, should be subsidized by tax money. And, all fuel should be evaluated on its merit as fuel and its impact on the environment, not its benefit to some section of the population or industy. So, lets take it point by point. others join in, please:

Point:

-------------

1. E85 will tear up your vehicle.

Research and results: This is a myth. If you have a clean fuel system and a vehicle of 1996 or later vintage, you'll have no problem. Research shows that after 1996 all auto manufactures started using O2 sensors that will handle the exhaust from fuels with a higher than 10% E rating. I have personally used more than 300 gal of E85 in various mixes in my 1994 Mazda Protege`. Guess what? I need to replace the O2 sensors. Though it didn't really wreck them, they aren't working at peak efficiency and I assume that they have been damaged. Of course they car already had 140k on it so it could be just wear but I suspect that the E85 made it worse. I've also run a substantial amount through my 1996 Ford Explorer. Anything over about E50 it didn't like, It clearly prefers Terrorist Extract over Corn Squeezins. No damage.

HOWEVER, BEWARE! E85 is more water based than petroleum based. So, two things can happen. If you have a dirty fuel system, the dirt will kind of settle and harden off and stick to the insides of your lines, tank, pump, injectors, carb, etc. Kind of like cholesterol in your veins. Imagine that if you drank an E85 cocktail and all the plaque in your arteries were to come loose at once... That would be very bad. This can also happen if you start running E85 in your vehicle. It could plug the fuel filter, the injectors, etc. That E85 will dissolve the plaque that is in gasoline (sometimes called "varnish") and it will plug something up. It did on both of my vehicles. I had to change out the fuel filters. BTW, fuel line antifreeze will too!

So, if you're following this and you want to give it a try, do it with caution. You may end up stranded in the sticks somewhere with plugged filter or an inoperative injector.

E85 will *NOT* damage your engine like causing it to stick a piston or throw a rod. It may cause damage associated with your fuel system. But, basically, it just cleaned mine up and I had to replace a couple filters. Thats actually a good think unless it does it 40 miles from your garage or you're sans toolbox. :)

----------

2. "You're paying well north of $5 per gallon for E85 because ethanol is currently subsidized to the tune of $1.50 per gallon by the government.."

Wish I could say it weren't so, however, I can't. I think this is basically correct. The figures maybe be off in one direction or another but, its true. I would like to comment, though, on the fact that I would much rather buy subsidized E85 made from corn grown by Farmer Dave Brown down the road than buy it from Hugo Chavez's nationalized socialist oil fields or from Ahmendinajade's (SP) sand squeezing operation in Iran. I don't however think getting the government involved is a good idea. Subsidies are just wrong regardless of who they go to, be they Farmers, Industrialists or Poor People.

That being said, regular gasoline has 130,000 BTUs per gallon. E85 only has 90,000 BTUs per gallon. Multiply that out. 90/130 x $4.00 = $2.76 ... To be equal in the amount of energy you get E85 should only be $2.76 a gallon. So, if you figure the price per 1000 BTU ethanol prices (I bought 5 gallon at $3.56/gal) you come out with: .039555... Multiply that by 130 and you get: $5.14 a gallon. So, forget subsidies, tax money, etc, if E85 is $3.56/gal you'll have to spend $5.14 to get the same amount of energy as a $4.00 gallon of gas. So, my Anti Ethanol friend, you are more than right. But! Remember: the ethanol is all made here in the good old USA and none of the money will go to support terrorist farming tyrants.

I like the fact that its made in the USA and it helps a section of our population that has been screwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwed. (I know, I was a farmer. Production costs exceed net income unless you farm 10,000 acres. I only had 300.) But, we should never have to subsidize something. Traditionally, subsidizing something will end up screwing us all in the end, farmers, fuel users and everyone. Sure, the subsidy keeps the price of E85 down but in the end it makes EVERYTHING more expensive.

--------------

3. "A gallon of ethanol requires 1700 gallons of water"

Last I checked I had about 1700 gallons of water EVERY FREEKING MINUTE going down the creek. Water is very much more renewable than oil. In fact, there are places in this country where 1700 gal of water is less valuable than a pint of oil. In fact, there are places on this planet that 1700,000,000 gal of water is les valuable than a pint of oil. We just have to make sure we use and dispose of the water properly and in an environmentally sound manner.

----------------------

4. "plus a similar amount of oil (in farming, processing, and than transporting--read, trucking it! to the gas station)."

Sorry, strong opinions here. So, you're saying that gasoline just is like "poof" materialized into the tanks at the station? or maybe those big oil tankers that come over here full of oil just float over here with the currents and then there is a pipe all the way from the coast to my gas station. This argument will not work. The fact is that refining a gallon of gasoline and refining a gallon of ethanol is pretty similar, energy wise. The problem is, politcal oponents of ethanol pick and choose what whey include in the energy cost of oil but use *EVERY*LAST*BTU* of energy used in delivering E85 to the station. FOUL BALL! I would estimate that the REAL energy costs are similar. Someone have any REAL stats on this? Sure, you've got to run the tractor, combine, distiller, truck, etc. But with oil you have to do all that drilling (and more because of the dry holes), pump it to the surface, refine it, boat it, truck it. Is there REALLY any difference?

----------------------

5. " And then a gallon of ethanol created from corn is a whole lot of corn not feeding people's mouths"

FALSE. The corn that gets used for ethanol is different corn than what gets used for food. For instance, you can't use "Corn Flakes" corn for ethanol. Well, you could, you just wouldn't get much ethanol. The corn used for ethanol is a different hybrid not suited for food production. (Unless you're a pig or a cow.) Nearly all of the scare about gas for food, etc, is just blather designed to get you to watch the news. However, the fact is if farmers can get more $s out of ethanol corn that food corn, they will take acres out of food corn and put it in ethanol corn, driving up the price of food. Its a free market people. thats what happens. Supply and demand. In the end, its a good thing.

Then there is the price of corn people are complaining about. This DOES directly impact products. The fact is that if we look at the price of corn over time and other things over time, the price of corn should legitimately be about $25.00 a bushel. Pshaw!!! you say. Corn was around $1.70 a bushel in 1950. That was not a high. Look at the prices of corn in those years. I know because my father told me long before the word "internet" was spoken. Look at the price of a 50hp tractor then and the price of a loaf of bread and the price of a pickup truck, now, take those prices and divide each one into a current day price. OUCH, FREEKIN ' OUCH! Tell me who's getting screwed? If all of your costs went up a magnitude of about 15x would you still be working your job! You'd be screaming bloody murder!!! But the farmers haven't, they've just quite and handed the production over to *SUBSIDIZED* corporations. Because the US Government messed with the markets, they screwed the farmers. Now, its time to catch up. You've had cheap food all these years at the expense of their (MY!) income. Now, live with it and shut the hell up! (Sorry, little tirade there. I'm cool. I'm cool.)

-------------------

Most of everything involved with E85 is simply hype. Everything from its advantages to its disadvantages to its requirements of energy for production, delivery, etc. The fact is, its different and its *RENEWABLE* and doesn't come from terrorist nations. It is more expensive than gasoline. Personally, I want to support the American Farmer and I don't really care if I pay 25% more for the fuel in my motorcycle. That'll only cut me back to an effective 70mph. :)

5. " And then a gallon of ethanol created from corn is a whole lot of corn not feeding people's mouths"

FALSE. The corn that gets used for ethanol is different corn than what gets used for food. ... The corn used for ethanol is a different hybrid not suited for food production. (Unless you're a pig or a cow.)


While it may be true that the corn used for ethanol is a different corn than we eat, you yourself said it's the same as used for feeding livestock. Have you checked the price of beef or pork lately?

Also, it's pretty easy to switch from growing corn A in a field to growing corn B in that same field the next year. If there's less of A, that we eat, the price is higher. Sometimes WAY higher.

While it may be true that the corn used for ethanol is a different corn than we eat, you yourself said it's the same as used for feeding livestock. Have you checked the price of beef or pork lately?

Also, it's pretty easy to switch from growing corn A in a field to growing corn B in that same field the next year. If there's less of A, that we eat, the price is higher. Sometimes WAY higher.

True. However, how much money to we put assign to the fact that ever gallon of ethanol thats NOT used is another gallon (actually 60% of a gallon) that sends money to terrorist nations. I guess part of me wants to say, "Whining about high food prices is better mourning 3,000 people dead from terrorist attacks."

Its just a shame that the environmental wackos have kept us from developing our own resources. Maybe these high gas prices are not such a bad thing. The fact is we need to use LESS energy. Different energy is good in the short run but in the long run we just need to be "hyperefficient". We need to find some way to go down the road that A) Doesn't finance the terrorists & B) Doesn't wreck the environment & C) Doesn't cause food (and other) prices to go through the roof. Ethanol could be that but not the way we're currently doing it.

Where can I buy switchgrass seed?

-TR

E85 WTCO test complete. The Yamaha TW200 tested negative. If I were completely out of gas, it might get me there. Ran it for a few miles. Even after it warms up, the fuel balance just is not there. At idle it seems to do just fine but it drops out mid range. I guess you could pulse and glide it but you'd have to hit it pretty hard. Once the throttle is open and the compression gets up there, it will run good. But mid range operation is nearly impossible. The choke (enrichening valve) just does not seem to supply any extra fuel at one half throttle and below. You coudl probably get yourself to the next gas station on a pint of it, with some work, but you'll be glad to get some real gasoline once you get there.

I may get time to rejet this weekend to something to see how it runs. Anybody have any idea what size jet to start with? Stock is 128 (I'm going to 130 or a needle repo for cooler weather operation and thought I would do an E85 test while I was tearing the thing down.)

Any help would be appreciated.

-TR

wow... Just a couple comments.

1. I don't think that those "environmental wackos" that stood in the way of preventing drilling everywhere (LIKE OUR LAST UNTOUCHED WILDERNESS) have anything to do with the current problem. The pittiful untaped reserves that are left on land and offshore are definatly not enough to make any sort of meaningful impact. Worldwide demand continues to rise, and if people in India and China ever become half as big of pig as we are as a nation we are all done for. If we are to drill in places that we were trying to preserve, there needs to be some some sort of way to get oil to invest in our future rather than line their own pockets, because like it or not it is going to get more and more expensive no matter how many more holes we drill.

2.Subsides are bad, in many cases. Big oil getts pletty of them. But somtimes they are a good way to encourage somthing (Like ethanol infrastructure) that is not economically viable YET. (ket word is yet)

Corn ethanol sucks.... we need to look into sugar ethanol from our neigbors in our own hemisphere. (Get rid of the absurd embargo on cuba.. they used to be the worlds #1 sugear producer.. Hey, we deal with the Chi coms don't we? whats the diff?) That and cellulosic ethanol. Corn is definatly not a long term answer. But it will help us get pumps in place and get vehicles on the road that can use it in the future.

Even my wifes father will admit corn ethanol is not the answer (He is a farmer in Illinois) He likes the money, but he knows its not a long term answer.

3. On another note, a straight BTU comparison of fuels is not entirely fair, because is does not take into account that proper tuning can make some of the lost power back by taking advantage of the much higher octane.

4.Regaurdless of what we do efficiancy IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. We cannot continue to be the biggest pigs on the face of the planet!

One more thing.. does this board have spell check?!:o

One more thing.. does this board have spell check?!:o

No, but if you use FireFox it will do it for you.

Surfin,

Corn ethanol does suck. I'm an free market kind of guy and this government ethanol mandate is damaging our economy and our move to better energy. Politicians are so arrogant that they think they can use their special interest magic wands and "pick" whats best for America. Well, get this you arrogant jerks (I'm talking to the politicians, not you) America will pick what America picks. Take your mandates and subsidies and cram it where the sun don't shine! (Sorry. Just had to get that little tirade off my chest...)

I'm certainly an alternative energy advocate. But I don't like the fact that many people have political oriented information outside of the facts and they try to use that to bolster their position for or against it.

I'm neither FOR or AGAINST E85, I just want the facts. Subsidies and Mandates screw with all that.

I've broken the 100mpg barrier with my bike. I'm about ready to rejet for E85 to see how it compares, energy / mileage wise. I've been told before (as you just did) that E85 gives you better mileage than it should (according to the energy / gal specs). I just pulled did a 103.6 mpg tank. If I could get low 80s with E85, I might just run it all the time.

The thing I like about E85 is that its made of corn squeezins and the money stays here. Somebody says it takes a bunch of oil to produce it. Well, it takes even more oil over and above what we use to get the petrol stuff here too, so, whats the diff? The diff is that the corn to make it came from the farm down the street (in theory). I like the theory even if the practicality is there (as you say "yet").

But! The whole purpose of this thread was to talk about running my TW200 on E85 with the choke on. The matter is closed, it won't work. I'm going to start another thread: What needs to be done to switch to E85 in a bike with a carb?

Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions. Let talk about E85 on a new thread...

wow... Just a couple comments.

4.Regaurdless of what we do efficiancy IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. We cannot continue to be the biggest pigs on the face of the planet!

:thumbs_up:

Hello everyone;

Good discussion here.. I'd like to keep it going. I am looking to convert my motorcycle (probably my '95 Ducati 900) to run on ethanol.. and also to distill it myself. Any past experiences with modifying motorcycle carbs to run on ethanol? Running with the choke on is an interesting experiment..

thanks..