Archives

I was thinking doing a drop mostly for cosmetic reasons and was wondering if it would make my 03 hch look better or if you have to go with a bigger drop for that.

If you want to maintain top fuel economy, budget for camber kits front and rear to take out the negative camber gained, plus you'll need a 4-wheel alignment to take out the toe-out that you'll gain by lowering the car, even if you skip the camber kit.

Although 1 inch isn't going to make your car look slammed, it will probably cut wheel gap in half, assuming you have around a 2" gap between the top of the tires and the bottom of the visible fender arch. If you're the kind of person that picks up on subtleties. I think you'd be pleased with a kit like the Neuspeed SofSport springs since they only lower about 0.75 - 1.0 inches and leave you with still having a lot of available travel, the ability to continue to use your stock shocks if you want (otherwise upgrade to Koni's) and they're among the softest lowering springs you can get, although they will still be a good 50-75% stiffer than the comfy stock springs.

If you just wanted to hack and didn't mind bottoming out from time to time, you could cut a coil off your stock springs. Then you maintain the comfy ride, but gain little to nothing in handling since it will be more prone to bottom out the springs since they're too soft for the reduced amount of travel. I think you'd be happy with a small drop, like what the Neuspeed sofsports offer.

I don't see any specific kit for the hybrid from neuspeed

Tom, I think you will like the look and handling if you go with after market springs to do the 1-inch drop.

I think one of the things that was changed on the 06 was Honda dropped it down to where there is minimum tire to fender clearance. I know when I saw the 1st HCH II's I really liked the way the Tires fit in the fender wells.

So I think you would have that same look if you went to the 1-Inch drop.

Nice :D

Terry

BTW, I wonder if you purchased the 4-Springs from Honda for the 06 would it give you that 1-Inch drop. Just a thought.

I'm sure the springs are sprung differently. Based on the weight distrubition and differences in weight between 7thgen and 8thgen

It would be a hoot to see a hybrid with ground effects, spoiler, etc. kind of like the cars on the VW "Unpimp My Ride" spoof ads.

I'd love to see one at www.hybridfest.com (http://www.hybridfest.com) complete with a calendar girl. :D



On a more serious side, imagine the benefits of ground effects on a truck or SUV....

Well, I have a set of tein SS coilovers and spc camber kit. Don't know how low I'll go now that I'm getting coilovers vs springs, Maybe 2". Only time will tell. And yes, I'm going to be getting an allignment hopefully that day ;)

Well, I have a set of tein SS coilovers and spc camber kit. Don't know how low I'll go now that I'm getting coilovers vs springs, Maybe 2". Only time will tell. And yes, I'm going to be getting an allignment hopefully that day ;)

Well, I'm ready for this New Look. :) Let's get it done for Hybridfest and all to "Admire" and discuss. :p

Terry

BTW, Terry likes Mod's, There-In :D

FWIW, the springs are the same for the EX as the hybrid. Any kit for the EX will work on the hybrid. In fact they're probably the same rate on the LX and DX too, but I know at the least the EX suspension would work. The other option is to do ground control with custom eibach ERS springs. Then you can pick any length, any spring rate and have adjustable spring perches to assure you get the ride height you want. Those usually go well with Koni "Sport" (also often just called the yellow ones) rebound adjustable shocks. As a small bonus, this means you can adjust the shocks to the level of ride firmness you want at any time, although typically on the sedans its a lot harder to get to the rear shock adjustments after installation.

Well, the teins are already on their way. I got the ss because it gave me the option of adjusting the stiffness. Maybe I should slam the car just for hybridfest ;) And fiberglass the rear wheel well. Who says you can't improve on factory aerodynamics ;)

Just my 02 here. I dropped the Del Sol by 1 3/4" using el cheapo coilovers from ebay. The spring rates were very high, I would guess 400 lb/in so the ride was very bouncy. I measured a slight toe in and a moderate change in camber. I did not have an alignment or a camber kit. I noticed that my FE increased by 2-3 MPG.

Well after about 3-4k miles of abuse (being launched out of my seat when going over a moderate bump) I went back to the stock springs. I noticed no change in FE so the gain must have been technique related and not aero related.

The point is that even with the toe in and camber of a 1.75" drop, my FE did not suffer, nor did my tires. The wear is even and not indicative of an alignment problem. I would think that a 1" drop wouldn't require an alignment at all. But that is just my experience with a 5th gen civic.

I did get camber kits. Camber is adjusted by basicly bring the tire in and out and toe is bringing the tire left and right. Is this correct? How do they normaly adjust for toe?

I may go for 2+" of drop depending on what looks good. 1" was before I decided to do the right thing and get camber kits.

Edit, the shocks have adjustable firmness and are supposed to ride just a little harsher than stock. I'm hoping for a decent ride not too much more harsh than the one with my tires at 60psi ;)

I have to just laugh when I see these ricers literally *bouncing*
along a relatively smooth road because they've gotten themselves
down to like an inch of available travel. On anything other
than a racetrack, I just don't see the point. The prius is about
as low stock as I'd want to go, because every so often I *do*
find myself on a dirt road or having to straddle some obstacle
and while it isn't about to stump-jump like a hummer I, it's so
far adequate. I still wouldn't mind having some sort of skid
plate under the transaxle, though.
.
_H*

For karousdb, you just didn't do enough miles to see the alignment issues. My 97 Civic took until nearly 40,000 miles on my tires before I could see the abnormal wear on my front passenger side tire. The alignment must be very close to zero'd in, but it was obvious from the wear pattern that either my camber is greater on the front passenger side, or there's a little bit of toe-out which is biasing towards the lighter side of the vehicle accepting the more indirect tracking.

I plan to get new tires and a 4-wheel alignment this weekend and I'll try to reinforce to the shop that I very much want the results of where it's at pre-alignment so I can know the exact cause of the abnormal wear. I might try to post a picture of the tire too. Alignment certainly would have an impact on fuel economy if it's far enough off though. It's increased rolling resistance, which we all know drags down your FE.

It's possible that in the case of the del Sol, you saw no difference because the increased rolling drag was canceled out by the decreased aero drag, for a net zero effect. Coast-down testing from 30mph would have been a good way to get a better feel for the tire drag.

To answer the specific questions, yes, camber is typically adjusted by having either the adjustments built into the coilover kit (typically Teins have adjustable upper front mounts for strut suspension like on the Civic, although this can vary from one model to another) and for the rear you may need an adjusting control arm. I could post pics of what this looks like on the older Civics, but I'm not sure how relevant it would be since in 2001 they adopted an entirely different control arm setup, front and rear. For the record, toe has a far greater impact on tire wear and drag than camber does. Toe up front is adjusted via the tie rod ends and requires no special kit. In the rear there's typically limited adjustment available in the stock suspension and again they *should* be able to zero the toe front and rear with no additional hardware.

Just for kicks, here's some pictures of the rear camber adjustable control arm, compared to a stock fixed arm, for my 1988 Civic. You can also see the Koni/GC kit and ERS springs in the last picture.

http://www.autocrossing.com/misc/camberkit.jpg

http://www.autocrossing.com/misc/camberkit2.jpg

Ok, well I got my new tires installed and 4-wheel alignment done. I'm posting this here to give you an idea of how badly your alignment can be off, even on a car like mine that is 100% stock. Granted, I've had my car in a minor accident, plus it's 9.5 years old now, which can contribute to alignment problems from a fractionally bent frame and spring sag, but still, it's a stock car.

Anyway, I mentioned before that the tire wear looked normal on the driver's side but was wearing down the insides of the passenger side. Sure enough, it has twice as much negative camber front and rear on the passenger side, plus it was more toed out on the passenger side. Both contribute to premature wear of the inside edges of the tires. Unfortunately, camber is not adjustable on the Civic without a camber kit, so they could only really adjust the toe. Of course, toe changes tend to affect camber too, so fixing the rear toe helped camber very slightly, but not by much.

http://www.autocrossing.com/misc/junk/alignment1.jpg

http://www.autocrossing.com/misc/junk/alignment2.jpg

Although the driver side camber was only -0.42 and -1.05 degrees, the passenger side camber was -0.95 and -2.04 degrees. Generally a FWD car should be -0.5 and -1.0. What's funny is the accident I was in hit the driver's side of the car, but it's still dead on perfect and the passenger side is the one running double what it should be. Oh well.

Even after the alignment to fix the toe, it's still running the same camber up front and -1.93 in the back so I might pick up one of those super cheap rear camber kits (basically just two longer grade 8 bolts and some washers) to take that rear one back down to -1.0. I wish I hadn't spaced out and forgotten to take a picture of the tire, but I have a friend with the same problem on her car and I'll try to take a picture of it for demonstration purposes. Anyway, point is that alignment matters and even on a stock car it can wind up pretty far out of spec after enough years go by.

The reason the passenger side might be off and not the drivers side is that when they hit the driver side the car lifted up on that side putting more pressure on the passenger side tire.

I hit a guardrail with the rear driver's corner, so it was a pretty solid lateral hit. This was about 6 years ago actually, June of 2000 that I hit it. The alignment is still mostly close to being within spec for camber, and toe was easy to get within spec, so I never bothered taking it to a body shop for anything but the estimate. They said it would be $4000 to fix, and at the time I was still under 25 and didn't want an expensive single-car claim on my record so I never had it fixed.

Anyway, loving my new tires; BFG g-Force Sports in 195/55-15. They actually have a higher treadwear rating (320) than my old ES100's (280) so they should last a little longer too, especially if I do the rear camber adjustment to get the tires to last longer on that side. I got about 40,000 miles out of my ES100's so more than likely this will be the last set of tires I ever buy for my Civic which is now showing just over 150,000 miles on it and due for replacement in another year or two.

Definitely take some good before and after pictures of your car too, so we can get an idea of visually how the drop looks on your Civic!

Hi Tom:

___The following should help you decide how far you may want to go?

___The Alpine system in the HCH-II is a kick-@$$ system too! Now if Terry shows up to HF with something like this, I don’t know what you are going to do next :D

Black Eyed Peas - 2006 Summer Tour - HCH-II

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Black_Eyed_Peas_HCH-II.jpg http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Black_Eyed_Peas_HCH-II-Rear.jpg

Maroon 5 - 2005 Summer Tour - HCH-I

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Maroon_5_HCH-I.jpg

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Tom:

___The following should help you decide how far you may want to go?

___The Alpine system in the HCH-II is a kick-@$$ system too! Now if Terry shows up to HF with something like this, I don’t know what you are going to do next :D

Black Eyed Peas - 2006 Summer Tour - HCH-II

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Black_Eyed_Peas_HCH-II.jpg http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Black_Eyed_Peas_HCH-II-Rear.jpg

Maroon 5 - 2005 Summer Tour - HCH-I

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/2/Maroon_5_HCH-I.jpg

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Wayne;

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Terry (Tiger)

BTW; :) :) :) :) :)

Well, I made an appointment to get my stuff installed at 1:00 on saturday. I'm hoping for the best.

Well, I made an appointment to get my stuff installed at 1:00 on saturday. I'm hoping for the best.

We want Pics, We want Pics, We want Pics, We want Pics :p Before & After, Please :D

Best of Luck, I bet it will turn out just fine. ;)

Terry

BTW, Just in time for Hybridfest next Friday. Close :)

:) Just 1-DAY More

And then "DROPPED"

And the answer to everyones question: Sorry about the glare in the pictures. And don't mind the allignment. It is Soooooo off right now ;)

Before:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/522/100_0323.jpg

AFTER:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/522/100_0342.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/522/100_0343.jpg

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/522/100_0344.jpg

Looks like 2" to me. Niiiiiice!

I like the Fogs and the HCH I is definitely {DROPPED}. ;)

I'm thinking more than the 1" to 1 3/4" , maybe like ? 2".

Now next thing is (TINT) on those widows, Right? :cool:

Nice pics of before & after. I hope you like it now that you have gotten it done, all but the alignment. Don't want to wear that New Rubber out that was just put on just week's ago. ;)


Terry

:eek: I forgot to tell you Tom you forgot the "Tire-Dressing". :eek:

Heh with the temps today I was seriously considering max legal tint all the way around. I don't know how our southern neighbors make it through winter.

It looks very nice :D Now if you put on an underbody spoiler ;)

As a southern neighbor, I will chime in on tint. I don't use the 'darkest' tint as far as how it looks. There is a tint that has a slight mirrored look to it that rejects more heat than the classic dark tint. I have put this on a couple cars and works great and I can also see better out of it, others still have trouble seeing it at you. Max legal or should I say minimum legal pass through percent here is 20% for the rear window and rear side windows, and 35% for the front side windows. We are also able to completely block off the top and bottom 6" of the windshield (though the bottom would mess with the sunlight sensor for the climate control). I have heard of some that have very lightly tinted their entire windshield as well, keeping the cabin even cooler in the summer while also reducing glare during day and night driving without hindering vision. I have the normal 20% on the top of my windshield, and I must say I prefer the tint on the rest of my car much better.

I just did a search and found this site, it should help people determine what is legal in their state (and British Columbia):

http://home.pcisys.net/~bpc/auto_law/tint/

For you, since you mentioned it, Illinois law is:

Illinois
NO / NO / ANY / ANY* / 1984 ?

Note : If window tint is applied to the rear-back window, a right and left rear-view mirrors are required. Cars before 1982 model year are exempt from IL tint law.

from what I read this means, 1st NO means no film allowed on windshield, 2nd NO means no film allowed on front windows, 1st ANY any tint allowed on rear side windows, 2nd ANY any tint allowed on rear window ... law established 1984.

Site last updated 6/10/05 ... laws may have changed some.

I cannot believe that you cannot have any tint on your front side or even a window strip ... but I have lived in this hot state my whole life. I hardly ever see a car without tint, a lot of people have illegally dark tint as well. Some have the colored (and slightly mirrored) tint and it can look quite nice if it matches the rest of the car, but that tint is only sold in local parts stores such as Advanced Discount Auto Parts and Autozone (which I don't go to because I have had much more pleasant experiences with NAPA and CarQuest).

One more note about tint. I bought some 5% from Wal-Mart and put it on the glass sliding doors on the East side of the house. Made a major improvement on reducing heat in that room. Before the room would get up to 20 degrees warmer, now it is reduced to about 5 more. Still see well out of it, and it looks almost black looking in when the blinds are closed. I am considering tinting the whole house, it is much easier doing home windows yourself than car windows IMHO.

Hope this all helps someone ...

Get the underbody kit!!! :cool:

I just re-read your statement. I use the heat if I get cold enough in the winter ;) Don't usually rely on the sun to warm the car up when it is cold out :p Plus, our cold is nothing compared to our friends up north! hehe, I know what you meant though :)

I have only saw snow here once in my lifetime, and I had to get all the stuff off of the car to make a tiny snowball, as soon as you stepped on the grass it was gone, and it was only one morning about 21 years ago.

Oh, family and friends complimented the car more with the tint, they said it made it look a whole lot better, some said it looked like a different car. I am sure you will like it. If I can borrow a digital camera, I will take a picture and put it up so you can see (once I figure out how to as well)

Holy cow that thing is slammed. How is ride quality?

Yes! Surely looks fantastic. I'm curious about it all too.

I can't realy say how the ride is since I'm sure the allignment has something to do with it. I also have yet to adjust the shocks stiffness. The shocks have 16 settings from soft to firm. I think they are on the softest but not sure.

Once I get the allignment tomorrow I will be able to tell more on how it rides.

Hi Tom:

___Just a hunch but I bet the stiffest setting offers even better stability and higher FE? With that, I think you know where I would be running them ;)

___I sure would love to see some lightweight 16” 06 Civic EX rims and some LRR Michelin MXV4 +’s on her to finish off the look. If the bolt pattern was right and Psy was here, I think we could convince him to disable his Civic for a day or two just to see yours at HF ready for action ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Tom:

___Just a hunch but I bet the stiffest setting offers even better stability and higher FE? With that, I think you know where I would be running them ;)

___I sure would love to see some lightweight 16” 06 Civic EX rims and some LRR Michelin MXV4 +’s on her to finish off the look. If the bolt pattern was right and Psy was here, I think we could convince him to disable his Civic for a day or two just to see yours at HF ready for action ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Guys,

That would really be very cool and Rewarding as well. ;)

Terry

I thought some of you would be interested in this allignment sheet

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/100_0346.jpg

Hi Tom:

___It looks like the Front Caster/Camber numbers were right in there with the drop. The rear Caster’s were out a touch though. The initial TOE numbers for your front end were pretty far out there. Especially that right front! With the adjustments, that thing should glide like the wind … When can we go for a ride ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

HAHAHAHAmmm L-O-W

A 1" drop ?
Will you even notice ?
The first thing that comes to mind is the reduction you will have in the cars frontal area if you drop it more . ( So it's not just for looks !)
I was just wondering if anyone has ever lowered a Prius.
Since hybrids have regenerative braking, is there anything different that keeps you from a 2.5" drop ?


EDIT : Skipped a page or two. That is a 1 " drop ??? Swwweeeettt !
I looks so much better than factory.
I guess hybrids can be dropped after all !`

Hi Wannabeclean:

___You would be surprised at how close the HCH-I/II’s underpinnings are to their 7th and 8th gen, non-hybrid Civic brethren.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

The only difference in the suspension between an HCH I and a 7thgen is the rear springs are different. (of course I didn't get special springs, so my car can tend to sag. Solution. Lower the front to match the sagging back ;) There is only so far the springs can sag in the back before they are all squished out ;)