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I stopped by my dealer yesterday just to look around. They sold 21 motorcycles on Saturday. This is NOT a big dealership. They only have about 50 bikes on the floor when it's full.

They don't have a single bike left 650 cc or below. And small scooters. Since they placed all their orders for the year during the winter, there is no capability for them to increase supply. Markdowns are gone. And the bikes coming in during the next few weeks are already taken. (This isn't included in the 21 sold on Saturday.)


I guess gas prices are having an effect.

That's good and bad news.

I wouldn't worry about an empty showroom. I've got ten bucks says half those bikes sold are on Craigslist or Ebay in 2 years with about 800 miles on the odometer, another 25% with a few thousand miles. So many people buy a motorcycle only to find they aren't really riders and after a couple years, they decide to ditch the garage queen.

I just picked up a perfect 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250 for $2200 with 4800 miles on it. I could probably have haggled harder, but they're $3500 new (plus dealer setup fee), so I feel OK with my purchase. Heck -- he paid at least $1300 to break in the bike for me. ;-)

Look hard enough and you'll find quite a few late model used low cc bikes on the market, and those Ninja 250s are perfect for that. Just be careful, as bikes that small tend to be really iffy on the highway. I had a Suz 450 that was a little too light on the highway. I would definitely opt for something in the 500-750 range if you plan on highway riding.

A good friend is a Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha dealer and says the sales are good and service is even better. He sold out of scooters and the other models are moving well. The factory inventories are low because the dealers did not pre-order a large amount because of the good chance of a hit from the economy. Likewise, the companies saw light orders from the dealers and didn't produce a large amount.

Shop work is booming though and battery sales are through the roof. He is seeing a lot of 70's and 80's street bikes. People are dragging the old street bikes out of storage after 10 or 20 years.

I've ridden MC since 1973. It is a big mistake to pay $3500 for a used , or new motorcycle to save money.In general a mid sized MC will get 40-50 mpg in city driving,and maybe a bit better on the highway.There are plenty of older Corollas/Prizms/Civics out there for maybe $5000 that will get 30+ mpg.

MCs are sooo dangerous now, especially for an inexperienced, or worse , new rider.With the advent of cell phones motorcycles became even more dangerous.If you are considering getting a midsized mc to save fuel- don't.

Scooters are a bit more dangerous than MCs because of the tiny wheels. They just don't handle debris strewn streets very well. The cheapo Chinese scooters are poor quality-they will break in a year or two.

Boy,I sure an negative this am.
Charlie

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/pedbimot/motorcycle/motorcycle03/recent.htm

From the above link:

Half of the fatalities in single vehicle crashes relate to problems negotiating a curve prior to a crash;

Over 80 percent of motorcycle fatalities in single vehicle crashes occur off the roadway (a crash occurring on the shoulder, median, roadside, outside right-of-way, off roadway – location unknown, in a parking lane, separator and gore. A gore is an area of land where two roadways diverge or converge.);

Almost 60 percent of motorcyclist fatalities in single vehicle crashes occur at night;

Collisions with fixed objects are a significant factor in over half of motorcycle fatalities in single vehicle crashes.

I respectfully but completely disagree with Charlie.

Gas mileage for my 54 mile rt commute was how I FINALLY justified to my wife and myself getting a bike at the ripe age of 41. I got a 2006 Vulcan 500 w/4K miles for $3100 and spent another $650 on MSF course, gear, and registration.

Two tanks down and I'm getting 57 mpg so far, about 3x better than my V-8 truck! (And 2x that of an average tiny cage.) I hope to get to 65 mpg as my riding/shifting gets smoother. I got to keep my truck (for hauling my wife's horse on occasion) and have a commute that is WAY less boring than before. And if I commute 4x/wk the saved gas (@$3.50/gal) will pay for the bike in 2 years.

So far I couldn't be happier with my decision.

Look hard enough and you'll find quite a few late model used low cc bikes on the market, and those Ninja 250s are perfect for that. Just be careful, as bikes that small tend to be really iffy on the highway. I had a Suz 450 that was a little too light on the highway. I would definitely opt for something in the 500-750 range if you plan on highway riding.

Completely agree. I bought the Ninja for my in town stop and go commute, plus the short stretch with a 50 mph speed limit I often do. I have no intention of taking that on the freeway. For that, I have 1978 BMW R80/7 -- but my car gets better mileage than it does in city driving. I've been thinking of replacing it with a newer Triumph Bonneville.

I've ridden MC since 1973. It is a big mistake to pay $3500 for a used , or new motorcycle to save money. ...

I've ridden MC since 1983 -- I bought the bike because 1) I love to ride and 2) I can use what I love to save money. The point I made earlier was that a large percentage of recent sales are to newbies, many of them will be looking at cost only, after getting wet a couple times -- they'll end up using the bike less and less, until finally about 2-4 years down the road, they'll decide its time to recoup the cost. There's always lots of great used bikes for sale if one has the patience to wait and a small amount of cash. The dealership's advantage is financing -- but I hate debt anyway.


MCs are sooo dangerous now, especially for an inexperienced, or worse , new rider.With the advent of cell phones motorcycles became even more dangerous.If you are considering getting a midsized mc to save fuel- don't.


I can't imagine using a cell phone while riding -- it would break the requisite concentration level (hyperfocus is what makes riding so enjoyable anyway) and just how would you be able to hear anything? As for danger, it is true that motorcycles are dangerous, but there is so much to love about riding. I'm experienced enough by now to never overestimate my abilities, or underestimate the inattention of car drivers. I do not feel invulnerable. I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and keep riding.


Scooters are a bit more dangerous than MCs because of the tiny wheels. They just don't handle debris strewn streets very well. The cheapo Chinese scooters are poor quality-they will break in a year or two.

I test drove a few scooters -- my original plan was to get a scooter as supplement to my motorcycle. I have to climb this very steep and very long hill though, and even a 150 had trouble keeping me at 35 mph up the hill. The next price point was $3600 + setup etc. for a 200 cc Kymco. Honestly, the Kymcos seemed fairly well made, but when the cost is going to approach four grand, that just felt like way too much for a scooter. That's why I started scouring Craigslist for a 250 Ninja.

The Kymco felt pretty stable because it has 16" wheels which give you the gyroscope-like stability a motorcycle has, although the seating is really different from a motorcycle and I wondered how side-winds would affect it. I did try a scooter with regular size scooter tires and it terrified me -- it had no stability at all even on a clean, flat, smooth road. I took it around the block once, pried my fingers off the bars, unclenched my teeth, and promptly said -- "definitely not for me".

Anyway -- I'm still glad I got the Ninja. ;-)

To me it's hard to justify the price of a new bike balanced against the car you own/the mileage you can get out of it with the tips here/the additional safety of an actual car.

To me it's hard to justify the price of a new bike balanced against the car you own/the mileage you can get out of it with the tips here/the additional safety of an actual car.

I didn't sell my car.

In fact, I embarrass my business partner with my somewhat beatup, but not dented or anything falling off it, one hubcap stolen 1995 Jetta. The day I got the title in the mail, and realized I wouldn't be sending off any more payments, was the day I became a complete cheapskate with respect to autos. Aside from the lousy mileage it gets, I love that car now. ;-)

There are times I do need a car to cart stuff around, like 700 lbs of clay (200 in the front passenger seat, 200 in each back passenger seat, and 100 in the trunk). I consider it a 1/3 Ton Jetta. Definitely can't do that on a Ninja 250.

As for a new bike -- as I mentioned before, it makes much more sense to buy a slightly used one. Tons of people get a motorcycle for image or romantic reasons, only to find they really aren't the motorcycle type. These are the bikes to buy -- let someone else pay the instant depreciation of buying new.

There are lots of good posts on this subject, especially concerning safety. Whatever reason a person chooses to ride, safety has to come first. For this aspect, I'd suggest visiting www.msgroup.org , go to the discussion area and click on safety tips.

Most people never put enough miles on a bike or big scooter to justify the expense. A person can show that to themselves simply by looking at the mileage on used rides. But there are those that do. In the last 13 months, I've riden 26,000 miles. I don't normally ride in the rain, but I do ride no matter how cold it gets. So there are exceptions.

If the goal is simply to save money, a person would be likely be better off spending the same money on a small used car and then hypermiling.

My dealer says that small scooters seldom get many miles on them. However, my wife's neighbor uses one all the time and appears to ride safely, so there are exceptions.

I think if a person is already inclined to ride and needs an excuse, then 2 wheels may be a good option.

As for depreciation on a new bike, it's not bad around here. In the first year, it's about 10%. If a person can find a cheap garage queen from someone who doesn't know the value, that's fine. But keep in mind, it's more difficult to get parts for bikes over 10 years old. It can be done through ebay and forums and for some that is part of the fun.

The danger shouldn't be minimized. But the group that uses 2 wheels as a tool rather than as a toy seems to ride more safely. (From personal observation.)

As I've seen the results of hypermiling in my 2003 basic Kia RIO getting 42-44 mpg in the city (epa 26/32) I'm less in favor of recommending 2 wheels as a way to save money as a capable scooter like the Yamaha Majesty will get about 57 mpg around town, but maintenance costs may offset this advantage. For a short trip, I can be there in my car in the time it takes to put my safety gear on to ride.

......I can't imagine using a cell phone while riding....

He's not saying that use of cell phones on the M/C is what is unsafe, he's saying that increased use of cell phones by car drivers has made riding less safe.

TRun10,
You're right of course. Midsized MCs -especially ones that aren't tuned for peak power- can get high 50 low 60 mpg. One of my early bikes - 1980 SR500 - got 62 mpg during the second gas runup in 79-83 (the second Arab embargo). Of course, it was light- 378 wet - and low powered 29 hp rear wheel. I still have that bike, but I hopped up the motor, lowered the gearing. I reversed the gearing to taller than stock a month ago, and I'll probably go back to the stock exhaust (mainly because of the noise, but it will limit the motor and help the mpg a bit by acting as governer). I should have been more clear; the 40-50 mpg is when ridden in a casual fashion. You aren't riding that way, since you are here in a mpg forum.


anagama, yes anon is correct. I was a little unclear on the cell phone use. For example, when you are riding down the road, you will see a driver at a stop sign getting ready to pull across into your path. A rider will immediately notice the deadly "hand to the ear sign" as he sees the back of this drivers head,and his left hand holding (something) to his ear while peering away from the rider checking out the traffic on the far side of the street. since he is planning to completely cross your side to travel in the direction opposite the direction you are riding. Riders IMMEDIATELY know that this drivers is going lift off the brake while turning his head back to face the oncoming traffic-YOU! You-a rider- know with 100% cerrtainty that he will release the brake before actually completing his head turn. The vehicle will start forward several feet, AND IF YOU-THE RIDER- IS LUCKY- WILL SUDDENLY LURCH TO A HALT AS YOU - THE RIDER - make it past the cell phone conversation and into his consciousness.

The above happens at least 2x for every 2 city miles I ride. What can a rider do? I try to get myself in the "crossing shadow" of a car or truck. I get right behind the big vehicle, or better yet just behind it and just out of its blind spot. This way the driver crossing the street won't be quick enough to manage to centerpunch me without centerpunching the bigger, more visible,and more destructive vehicle. Plan B can be to flash you headlights up and down while braking in the hopes of making eye contact with the soon to offend cell phone user.

There really isn't a good way to handle the cell phone using car driver.

On the bright side, I've been in maybe 6 motorcycle wrecks in 35 years, and they were all my fault- careless, risky, or mechanical screwups that were my fault. Most riders manage to injure themselves with no help from car drivers. I think someone posted a link showing just how many MS wrecks were single vehicle accidents-screw ups! You really have very little margin for error with a mc.

Charlie

..... On the bright side, I've been in maybe 6 motorcycle wrecks in 35 years....That's the bright side?!

You must be kind of scary to ride with! :eek: :p

Within this discussion, it's obvious that the cars and drivers are the problem.

If more people would get out of their cars, we would have better motorcycle safety. All those cell phone drivers should be on bikes; they'd use less fuel, consume less resources to manufacture and have a better time. Stop polluting the world with your Prius!

Hybrid should mean 'hybrid transportation' - using the right vehicle for the job. When was the last time you saw someone in the back seat of a Prius? Passenger seat?

I have the perfect vehicle for most of my fair weather transportation (6 mos/yr): a 1937 80" Harley Davidson.

Why?:
Chicks dig it
50mpg without hypermiling.
I still have balls.
It's been recycled about 15 times (rebuilt it for $3500)
It's gorgeous

Dust-to-Dust, it is just about the most economical, planet-saving vehicle on earth.

Stop killing the planet with toxic batteries and wasteful cars.

That was uncalled for and unreasonable.

Try reading more about what the true impact of fully recyclable hybrid batteries is.

You lose on every count. Evaluate the points.

The biggest: there is a very big hole in Canada where the nickel is mined. I've flown over the area and it looks like a nuclear bomb went off. The nickel extracted is trucked and shipped all around the world to refinement then battery production. Is it recycled? - yes - most of it - that's the good news in a planet scorching process. $26,000 worth of brand new beer can remains a failure to conserve. The harley is made of bog iron and probably has been rebuilt a half dozen times. I commute on it daily and you can't imagine how fun it is.

Another: more people should be on 2 wheels much of the time. The vehicle is inexpensive, light on resources and a lot of fun.

Just trying to expose the falsehoods of disposable, crap products (not just the Prius) and lock the 'the car' mentality has on us. We can build efficient, resource conserving transportation that lasts 71 years and lap-dancers dig.

In mockery, the bike is named 'Prius.'

Now I know you are spouting falsehoods. That mine in Canada no longer looks desolate. All pictures circulated of the area are from decades ago.

If you like your bike, that's great. The emissions are not so great. The usability in snow is not great. The carrying capacity is not great.

There are plenty of reasons to not ride a bike, just as there are plenty of reasons to ride a bike.

Make your decision but at least do your research before you start bashing something.

Decades?

Google Maps, satellite view, for Sudbury and Coniston, Canada. It might be the only brown spot in Canada. You don't get the full impact from Google; the barreness and screwed up (reclaimed) land is best witnessed in a small plane. Something you need to see in person, which you - obviously - have not. The lakes are a notable and interesting brown, turqouise and 'antifreeze green' . The ore that came from that ground is in your 'green' car. Those pix might be a couple years old. Wonder where they're digging now, with all the shortages of nickel ore and such?

You've wasted $26,000 of new ores, oil and plastics materials to save a few tenths in emissions. It would have been better spent buying carbon credits, if you had truly felt strongly about it.

You're working with an insignificant patch to a problem that needs real solutions.

(A bike isn't the only solution (bad weather), but it works for much of the country/world, most of the time. My 1987 Ford pickup is the backup for bad weather and carrying loads and it only has 245,000 miles and can be rebuilt as long as my 'Prius', saving tons of resources otherwise wasted to vanity.)

How many cars have you bought since 1987?

Coming on kinda strong for a newcomer, eh? Have you checked the percentage of nickel actually used for hybrid batteries? If you had you would note that most nickel is used in steel.

While you are spouting about $26K purchase prices, I bought a used Insight for $13K which was $20,600 when new (yes, I have the sticker from the original owner). This is my 3rd car -- the first was sold to my sister (who promptly totaled it not 10mo after beginning to drive it). That was a used '95. I bought the '02 Elantra new (now 98K mi), and I'm still driving it. I got the Insight in January (@68Kmi, now 82K). I have no intention of giving up either for some time.

Now, while you are extolling the virtues of your motorcycle, I drive both vehicles through MN winters. The Elantra returns 50+mpg in those temps, the Insight returns 75+mpg. Right now the Elantra is on a tank at 67mpg and the Insight is at 120.3mpg. Can your motorcycle match this? Will you still be riding it 100K mi later? Can you ride it in all weather?

There is a place for motorcycles just as there is a place for cars. Dismissing the quite frankly tiny percentage of nickel used in hybrid batteries as a globe destroyer is just plain silly.

Congratulations on making your truck last. I chose newer vehicles because I've been driving a shorter period of time and also because I've got a family to protect with air bags and such -- things that your truck does not have.

Next time you attack all these "wasteful car drivers" maybe you should check what they are actually being used for and for how many miles?

My "green car" is simply the most fuel efficient gas powered conveyance mass produced in recent times -- I bought it because I like it and consider it my "sports car." It also happens to get me to work and back using 1/5th the fuel my wife's 4x4 Escape (leased, thank God!!) would, and 1/2 the fuel my Elantra can do it in. Maybe you should consider that saving the planet wasn't my only consideration? Or maybe even that it wasn't the surpassing and primary reason? Both vehicles are proving ridiculously reliable for me.

Best of luck to you with your vehicle decisions. Try to be a little less judgmental in your other posts.

Coming on kinda strong for a newcomer, eh?

Well, I've tried to conserve for decades. Just challenging the smug self-righteousness that has emerged with some as a by-product of hybrid car marketing, overlooking that something else might achieve the same results at 10x less cost and resources.

It IS commendable that you have bought your cars used and for all your effort they get motorcycle-like mpg - that is whole problem action. (Without being too harsh, if you applied your effort to bikes, you could spend your time tinkering bikes doing 170-300mpg (see dieselbike.net) during your Minnesota summers and using the Insight for winter you could halve your annual consumption).

My "green car" is simply the most fuel efficient gas powered conveyance mass produced in recent times.
...for a car... <sigh> The academic excerise, again. Yes, you're doing very well. You spent 10x as much in $ and resources to achieve what is possible on an ordinary motorcycle. See Wayne's review of a stock Yamaha that gets 129mpg without effort.


Best of luck to you with your vehicle decisions. Try to be a little less judgmental in your other posts.
I'll try. Not sure that 'judgemental' is the right term, though. Challenging pedantry may be more accurate.

I'll grant there is a choice here -- I've chosen to drive cars because of the carrying capacity and weather protection. You've made a choice and so have I -- I may still consider a motorcycle in the future but at this time I've decided it doesn't match what my current uses for a vehicle require.

I actually helped edit that motorcycle article. I can assure you he put the same effort into getting 129mpg as I do daily to achieve that mileage from my Insight.

129 MPG witn no effort! The average USA motorcycle will get 35-45 mpg when casually ridden in city riding,and about 45-50 in 65 mph hy cruising


Motorcycles won't be big players in the USA- not with $4 gas, and not with plenty of cars almost matching their FE. If we get $15 gas,and some 100+ mpg motorcycles with roughly Buell Blast performance, them more folks will consider them. A FI 4 stroke 250-500cc single would work just fine( 25-30 rwhp 350 lbs , 26" seat height, 17" wheels))


When new(and not modified for acceleration) my 1980 SR500(500cc 4 stroke kick start single) would get 60 mpg in city riding with me flogging the throttle. It had adequate power /acceleration/braking.It gets about 40-45 mpg now, but I'm planning to refit the stock 32mm carb and stock exhaust).It should get 50-55 mpg when I finish.

A Buell Blast-500cc 4 stroke single-390 lbs,electric start would be a pretty good bike for city FE. Many folks report 65 mpg in casual city riding.

Unfortunately, motorcycle riding is dangerous ,not much fun in 95 degree weather ,and even less fun and more dangerous in the rain.
The cheap scooters that are so popular can save some gas and $$, but those little wheels just aren't suited to crummy, potholed city streets.The low seat height, and low CG make them a lot easier for newbies to ride.Unfortunately, they are maybe a notch less safe than a MC with 17"+ wheels.
Motorcycles can't /won't be more than a tiny part of the solution.They are for fairly athletic ,risk taking young people and older fools like me.
Charlie

Hybrid should mean 'hybrid transportation' - using the right vehicle for the job. When was the last time you saw someone in the back seat of a Prius? Passenger seat?

I have the perfect vehicle for most of my fair weather transportation (6 mos/yr): a 1937 80" Harley Davidson.

Why?:
Chicks dig it
50mpg without hypermiling.
I still have balls.
It's been recycled about 15 times (rebuilt it for $3500)
It's gorgeous

Dust-to-Dust, it is just about the most economical, planet-saving vehicle on earth.

Stop killing the planet with toxic batteries and wasteful cars.
Do you have use of both your legs? If you do, I have a better vehicle for you: a bicycle. It will keep you in shape and produce far fewer emissions than any gas or electric motorbike. It requires less maintenance than a motorcycle and is cheaper to purchase. Dust-to-dust, a motorcycle isn't even close.

How about rollerblades? They are made of less metal than a bike.:)

Or if that is STILL too much waste for you, why not try the good ol Two Feet & a Heartbeat. You can even forego wearing shoes (and clothes too!) if you desire using even less resources :D :Banane03:

I do have a bike - a 1984 Trek, one of the USA made ones that made their name. It's in full use and great shape. People are very surprised to be passed by a guy on a bike that old.

But, we're talking cars vs. bikes and you're avoiding the question.

Cars cannot win. It's physics; its about accelerating mass. Here is an equation: a bike is to your car, what your car is to a Hummer. 2900lb of crap cannot accelerate using less energy than 290lbs of crap.

So, it's about three things:

1. accelerating mass and you cars, obviously aren't close. That's the Law. You can ignore it but you can't beat it.

2. you are using 10x more crap to build and support the vehicle over it's life.

3. no lap-dancer has ever wanted to be in your slow, wasteful, boring car.


Phoebeisis: If motorcycle fleet average is 35-45mpg (it's not), what is the US auto fleet average? 24mpg? That's a silly argument.

You can flip your question to say, "Yes, a 190mph, 3 second 0-60 bike can get the same mileage as a Prius."

Or, you may ask, "Why is the Prius so ineffiecient that it can only put out 1/3 that level of performance at the same fuel consumption?"

The craziest bikes START at Prius mileage. Think of what you could do STARTING with the 70mpg of the Ninja 250 or the Blast. They only take a 10th to cost in resources to make and own (my insurance for 2 bikes is $250, which is a bit high). Folks are cobbling up $3000 diesel bikes that get 300mpg w/o knowing what hypermilling is (youtube: 'diesel bike' to see).

You're narrowly fixated on mileage and not what it costs to get from point A to point B with the least impact.

There hasn't been a single cogent rebuttal, other than some mumbling about weather and safety. (Supafro: stop picking your nose.)

You lose on all counts.

Resolved: My 1937 Harley destroys any conservation comparison to any 'green' car.

Flatty,
I would put the USA "car" average at a bit under 20 mpg- I think the Feds make a claim of about 18mpg or so-actual mpg all miles/all gallons.
You need to get out more if you think the USA bike fleet average is more than 40 mpg.Now I don't doubt that your 20 hp bike gets 50-60 mpg-why wouldn't it; low hp ,low weight=good mpg -no secret there. However bike manufacturers haven't been building bikes with mpg in mind. In the 70's 80's there were actual EPA numbers for bikes.I have several brochures with the #'s on them(and I was there of course).

"Many cars get better mpg than most motorcycles.I am ashamed of our industry," - that isn't me, it is Craig Vetter in Sept 2008 issue of Cycle World.

My points
1) We don't have the bikes we need to get the numbers motorcycles are capable of.
2) At current gas prices it just wouldn't matter. Motorcycles just aren't for most folks- not with $4 gas. $10-$15 gas - different stories.

Your point is, "My 1937 Harley is greener than any green car." I'll concede that, but so what? Your Trek is greener than your Harley??

Charlie
PS -Nothing new about diesel bikes- a company in India has been producing a 150 mpg diesel bike for many years. Never made it to the USA of course(15 hp). The electric motorcycles have more potential than the diesel bikes(EPA regs+cost+ spark motors are so good/efficient etc).

I do have a bike - a 1984 Trek, one of the USA made ones that made their name. It's in full use and great shape. People are very surprised to be passed by a guy on a bike that old.

But, we're talking cars vs. bikes and you're avoiding the question.

Conservation of resources seemed to be your goal.. I wanted to show that there are options far better than a motorcycle and that every complaint you have about cars consuming too much could be applied to a motorcycle. But if you want to talk about cars vs bikes, then we can do that.

If I get a motorized vehicle, it has to have a roof and more than two wheels. I don't know of many people in Manitoba who can ride a motorcycle year round. Packed to the gills, a motorcycle still doesn't hold much. A car does, which I need from time to time.

So, I will have a car before I have a motorcycle. There is no reason I can't have both, but from a conservation standpoint, having two vehicles instead of one doesn't make much sense when the difference in fuel consumption is so small. Wayne gets 120mpg on one of the most fuel efficient bikes. I get >70mpg in my car in those situations where I could be on a motorbike. I may have driven 100 miles solo or unloaded this summer where a motorcycle could have been used. Two people won't be very comfortable or safe on the bike I like -- a CBR125. So getting a motorcycle for myself to save less than two gallons of gas a year doesn't make it from a conservation standpoint in my mind.

There hasn't been a single cogent rebuttal, other than some mumbling about weather and safety. (Supafro: stop picking your nose.)

You lose on all counts.

Resolved: My 1937 Harley destroys any conservation comparison to any 'green' car.

Ha ha, hey! How'd you know I was picking my nose! :eek:

It doesn't matter if anybody provides a cogent rebuttal because you simply create another response filled with MPG numbers you pull from who knows where. So far no one has agreed with your point of view in its entirety. Why does no one else share your beliefs and feelings?

Now don't get me wrong, I am not anti motorcycle. In fact I was maybe looking into purchasing one in the near future as I drive to work alone; for which a motorcycle would be a better way to travel. But if I do, I won't be going around calling other vehicles "pieces of crap" and telling people "you lose" (I didn't even know we were playing a game).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but motorcycles are also made of various metals, rubbers, and plastics. But, compared to my car, your motorcycle has consumed less resources in its production - that I agree with. But, then you also have another vehicle, a truck, which has used probably twice the amount of resources in its creation than my little Mazda. What's worse, it sounds like it sits parked in your driveway. So let's say my car used/uses X resources, then your bike is 0.2X and your truck is 2X. Then you currently have 2.2X of spent resources etc.. in your possession, of which only 0.2X you use on a regular basis (9%). The rest just sits, depreciating in condition and negatively contributing to the environment. Furthermore, when you use either of your vehicles, you are spewing so much more emissions into the air than I am. Seems kind of counterintuitive to me...

I agree with you that bikes would be a better fit for a lot (but definitely not all) of people that currently drive cars. And I'm glad that you are trying to show those people that. However, I think if you approached others with a kinder tone instead of insulting them and their vehicles that you would have a greater success of convincing people and would thus encounter much much less resistance to your POV.

Ok, I'm going back to picking my nose now :)

It seems to me, that in the "Motorcycle Owners" area, this discussion has turned into a flame war.

I ride a '82 v45 Sabre "The Red Beast". It averages 38 MPGus and has the following advantages over my secondary vehicle, '92 Mazda B2600:

38 MPGus vs 26 MPGus (No hypermiling yet on either vehicle)
I can ALWAYS find parking at the park & rides when I choose to ride the bus. (55 mile commute.)
I get to use the HOV lanes.
I have a He77 of a lot more fun riding the bike.

Things I have to give up when riding the bike:
Cell calls (I have bluetooth in my helmet, but would rarely use it, if ever.)
About 5 minutes a day of prep time (Chaps, body armor, etc.)
About 5 minutes a day fueling. (I have to fuel the bike daily, truck every 3 days)
Cargo capacity. (not often a factor for the commute.)
Dryness and warmth. I live in Olympia, WA and commute to Seattle. But I do have a foul weather suit.

Times I won't bike:
Weather below 32F (Don't like ice very much.)
Forcast for RAIN (Showers ok.)
Too Tired.

For the math:
I got the bike for $1100 4 years ago, saving it from the scrap heap. For the justification of saving $$$. A quick calculation shows that I would have to drive it about 30000 miles to make up the difference in mileage to recoup the cost of the bike. (Not including the cost of equipment, etc.) I really don't feel that the $ is any good reason to get a bike. But for some, the fun is worth it.

If you want good mileage, and are planning on getting a replacement vehicle, do some simple math and figure out how far you have to drive it to pay for it.

Miles_to_Recoup = $purchase_price/(((1/Current_Milage)-(1/New_Mileage))*FuelPrice)

For a Prius (~60mpg) to my truck (26mpg) this comes out to almost 11.5 miles per dollar spent on the Prius (at $4/gallon). I would rather spend my time improving the mileage on my truck. Even if you calculate it at 100mpg, it is still 8.7 miles per $ spent. If I can push my truck from 26 to 30 mpg, I will save a dollar every 48 miles. Not to mention keeping another vehicle out of the recycle chain. I am in this for the long haul. In 5 years, I will need a new car, I have 255,000 on the truck now. I should get to 300,000 within 2 years. Lets see how long I can keep it running, then I will replace it with a used Prius or Insight if one is available.

In conclusion, Buying a vehicle to save $ is counter-productive. Learn to drive more efficiently, Cycle more, shorten your work week, Take Public transit.

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Before you criticize my commute distance, It is cheaper for me to commute (Even when it reaches $6/gallon) than to live closer to work.

I've found that with more and more motorcycles on the roads that they are getting more watched out for all the time. You still have to be hyper-vigilant if you want to live. Always have an escape route planned when near other cars.
NOthing is more important than getting yourself enrolled in a riders course or two!!
As for used bikes they are everywhere. craigslist is a great place to look. Before you buy or bid check out KBB.com (kelly blue book). don't pay more than you need to.
If your not going to ride this winter no use pay the insurance to own a bike until summer either.
As for scooters, they look like death wishes to me. Not an alternative to a motorcycle guys. They just arn't the same thing at all.
Never stop for a beer or drink on the way home if your riding, NEVER!
I used to read a magazine out of england called BIKE. It always had great riding tips in it.
take care guys.