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Last night and this morning I was barely able to pull off 52mpg.

It seems whenever I am crusing along at low throtle the car lugs. I have 60mpg on the instantanious then the car bucks and it drops to 40 and then goes back to 60. The same happens if I try to maintain 80mpg. It lugs and drops down to 40 and back to 80.

It's only been these last two trips, It just seems weird I can't maintain light throtle without lugging. I wonder if the CVT is having problems.

Sounds to me like a NOx purge?
With mine, the effects are maximum if I maintain 60MPG for a long time, like on the freeway. Then I get a sudden surge and it drops down to about 40MPG, same throttle position.

It holds about 40MPG for a couple seconds then returns back to 60MPG.
Sometimes the purges seem almost stacked on top of each other.

Sometimes I'll also get that @ sustained 80MPG but is only a fraction of the MPG dip that is experienced at 60MPG, and recovers allot quicker.

I usually back off the throttle during those purges, to keep my current number.
But I can't imagine it putting any serious dent into a trips MPG.

It is consistant. Any time I'm holding a light throtle it bucks. It only started the last few days. Do you think it is going to go away? Please tell me yes, but I think it won't. Maybe I need a new cat? or could it be my transmision?

It is consistant. Any time I'm holding a light throtle it bucks. It only started the last few days. Do you think it is going to go away? Please tell me yes, but I think it won't. Maybe I need a new cat? or could it be my transmision?
I'm thinking Honda Service to do a Real Check on the CVT & Computer System. ;)

Then (You) will have the answer and Peace of Mind to go along with the Answer. :D

Good-Luck,

Terry
BTW, I would really appreciate it if you would let me know how things work out.

Hi Tom:

___If it were the CVT, you might actually feel it in the shifter itself. I have a sneaky suspicion it is the EGR becoming dirty as those were famous for causing Insight’s to have an added Vibration and bucking action during any number of accelerator transitions after a few years due to carbon build up.

___I highly doubt the dealership will find a hidden code set or you would more then likely have seen a CEL for something this drastic. They would be able to diagnose the problem if it is repeatable with a tech in the passenger seat however.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

My 2000 Insight is doing it too. Yesterday on the trip home it did it allmost all the way home. Yesterday the southeast side of the Phoenix metro area opened a new segment of the 202 freeway that I will be using from now on. There was a learning curve on this new road, and at the end of the day I had lost .2 off my record 101.2 MPG. I blame most of the loss on the weird way the car is running. Today on the way to work I was blessed with two cement trucks traveling at about 53 and I slipped in between them as I merged onto the freeway. We traveled together for about 10 miles and I gained back my .2. Today on the way home it was doing the weird thing again but not all the way home. I agree it acts a lot like nox purg, over and over again. My throttle got very sensitive, at cruise of about 110 impg if you push down one billionth of an inch it would go to 50 impg, or let up one billionth of an inch it would go to 150 impg. It was very difficult to control but I got home with 101.5. I was wondering if it had something to do with the heat as the last two days have been 110+. I have driven in that kind of heat many times before and not had the problem, or maybe didn't notice it.....Louis

Hi Louis:

___In your case, an EGR cleaning would be the first thing I would try as your symptoms match the cause. Although cleaning an EGR is a relatively simple task in the Insight, most have found the action reappears after a short period and a new EGR is the only answer. Again, an end user replacement if you can handle a wrench but if not, a recommendation to the service writer and you should be set … If that is the problem?

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I do all but the warranty work on my car so I will look into the EGR tomorrow...Louis

Definately time to bring it in to the shop. 39mpg on the way home today :(

I checked my egr today and it looked ok to me. Only a light coat of carbon dust that could be wiped off with my finger. All the ports and passages were clear with no nasty carbon build up. I didn't do any of the electrical tests as I don't have a code reader but I did clean it out with carb cleaner. I'll see how it runs tomorrow.
I had no change in my MPG today still 101.5, but I did see 101.7 for several miles on the way home. The .7 was just too weak to handle the realities of the hills and surface roads at the end of the trip.....Louis

Hi Louis:

___It just so happens there is a long thread going on in the YaHoo Honda-Hybrid forum about the infamous Honda Insight EGR. I recommend taking a quick look as it isn’t just the way the valve seats due to buildup but the potentiometer can go bad as well. Cleaning is always the first step and if it cures the bucking, you may be good for a while. If the symptom re-appears, a replacement is more then likely the best and final solution … If that is the problem in the first place? I have read literally hundreds of posts on this symptom over the past 4 years and 90 + % of the time, it is an EGR with the Insight in particular.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I cleaned it out yesterday and it ran OK today. I really wouldn't call it BUCKING but more like a nox purg. I have been following that tread also and have often wondered what brand of fuel they use. Is it Joes Jypo or a good cleaning fuel like Chevron, and just how much carbon is on the valve....Louis

I wonder about that as well, if the egr gets all dirty, whats the rest of my engine looking like?

And if the egr is like $120 and labor is going to be like $100 thats $220. Currently my FE is down 20%. I figure it would take me a year to recoup the cost of the egr replacement. I wonder if I should just suck it up and not replace it.

I don't feel like pulling the egr off my car and cleaning it, but if there are any volunteers in the chicago area I'd be happy to drop buy so they could do it for me ;)

Hi Tom:

___A non-functioning or incorrectly functioning EGR means a lot more NOx as it is an emission control device first and foremost let alone lowered FE and the ever present drivability issues if it is a problem. An EGR reintroduces a small portion of the Exhaust gases back into the intake stream for two reasons. It actually lowers the exhaust temperatures below NOx formation during combustion and it reduces pumping losses, thus the higher FE. With an ill-functioning EGR, your exhaust temps are not only climbing, those temps can begin to cause damage to the head gaskets and heads surfaces with every heatup/cool down cycle. It isn’t just the money in this case and I hope you would have it looked at to at least verify if it is the EGR or the CVT?

___If you can find someone with a Helm’s manual, I can help you remove, clean, and/or replace the EGR the next time you are over.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Isn't it just that doohicky that ataches to the intake manifold?

Hi Tom:

___Yep.

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm not real sure about a Honda, but, I changed the EGR valve on my Saturn and it was easily accesible(after removing the throttle body hose) and only took 5-10 minutes. The Chicago area would almost be an excuse to take a roadtrip. :p

Tom, if you change the doohickey :) would you mind taking a snapshot or two if possible?

I made an appointment for honda to take a look at my car. To me it looks like you just need a gaskit and you have to undo two bolts and a few cables. Looks easy enough. I hope honda diagnoses what ever problem I'm having correctly. Somehow I suspect they will not be able to reproduce it. I was having problems reproducing it on the streets near the dealer.

Hi Tom:

___Another wrt an 03 HCH-I w/ a CVT …

**************************************************************
YaHoo – Honda-Hybrid - Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:29 am

Bucking in CVT transmission:

A problem has developed with the transmission in my 2003 HCH with CVT,
and I wanted to run the situation by the group for comment...

A little over a week ago, I started noticing that there was a shudder in
the transmission at low speeds. I also had a few instances come up at
low speeds (mainly in parking lots, where you're accelerating and
decelerating slowly over a low range of speeds) where the car would
"buck" in a way which reminded me of when I was first learning to drive
a manual -- where the RPMs don't match up and you sort of jerk
forward/back until everything settles down.

I took the car into my local dealer and described the situation. They
claimed they couldn't duplicate the problem, but offered to do a
firmware update. No dice -- the problem happened to _me_ within two
blocks of the shop, and I turned around and arranged to bring it back in
the next morning. The next day, someone from the shop said that he
could feel the problem in a test drive -- a slight "flutter". They
"flushed the transmission fluid and burnished the clutch pack" and gave
it back to me. Things do seem a bit better, but today I still got the
car to buck a bit in a parking lot, and I sometimes feel a slight
hesitation or "jitter" while accelerating. The problems always seem to
be at low speed -- less than 20mph, and the worst is at very low speed
-- 5mph or so.

The guys at the dealer seem to think I'm nuts, and if they aren't
regular users of a CVT-equipped car, then perhaps I sympathize with
their opinion a bit. But one of the things that I always liked about
the CVT is the silky-smooth acceleration, and now that's gone and it's
annoying me.

Any comments or ideas from anyone?

Thanks,

Garin
**************************************************************
YaHoo – Honda-Hybrid - Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:47 pm

Re: [honda-hybrid] Re: bucking in CVT transmission - EGR?

Thanks to everyone here on the list with the help on my "bucking
transmission" problem. It did indeed work out to be the EGR valve. I
went in yesterday and asked them to test it, since the problem still
wasn't fixed. The seemed a little doubtful, but admitted that the EGR
valve could cause these types of symptoms (they had never been able to
duplicate my reported issue when they were driving). When I picked up
the car, it was immediately obvious that the problem had been fixed. I
drove it to a nearby mall and did some low speed stop-n-go driving to
make sure. Whew -- I _much_ prefer driving a car that's working properly...

Final bill was about $200 -- all of it for the transmission work which
presumably didn't really have to be done. They didn't charge anything
for the EGR valve replacement itself.

Garin
**************************************************************

___Good Luck

___Wayne

Hi Tom:

___Another wrt an 03 HCH-I w/ a CVT …

**************************************************************
YaHoo – Honda-Hybrid - Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:29 am

Bucking in CVT transmission:

A problem has developed with the transmission in my 2003 HCH with CVT,
and I wanted to run the situation by the group for comment...

A little over a week ago, I started noticing that there was a shudder in
the transmission at low speeds. I also had a few instances come up at
low speeds (mainly in parking lots, where you're accelerating and
decelerating slowly over a low range of speeds) where the car would
"buck" in a way which reminded me of when I was first learning to drive
a manual -- where the RPMs don't match up and you sort of jerk
forward/back until everything settles down.

I took the car into my local dealer and described the situation. They
claimed they couldn't duplicate the problem, but offered to do a
firmware update. No dice -- the problem happened to _me_ within two
blocks of the shop, and I turned around and arranged to bring it back in
the next morning. The next day, someone from the shop said that he
could feel the problem in a test drive -- a slight "flutter". They
"flushed the transmission fluid and burnished the clutch pack" and gave
it back to me. Things do seem a bit better, but today I still got the
car to buck a bit in a parking lot, and I sometimes feel a slight
hesitation or "jitter" while accelerating. The problems always seem to
be at low speed -- less than 20mph, and the worst is at very low speed
-- 5mph or so.

The guys at the dealer seem to think I'm nuts, and if they aren't
regular users of a CVT-equipped car, then perhaps I sympathize with
their opinion a bit. But one of the things that I always liked about
the CVT is the silky-smooth acceleration, and now that's gone and it's
annoying me.

Any comments or ideas from anyone?

Thanks,

Garin
**************************************************************
YaHoo – Honda-Hybrid - Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:47 pm

Re: [honda-hybrid] Re: bucking in CVT transmission - EGR?

Thanks to everyone here on the list with the help on my "bucking
transmission" problem. It did indeed work out to be the EGR valve. I
went in yesterday and asked them to test it, since the problem still
wasn't fixed. The seemed a little doubtful, but admitted that the EGR
valve could cause these types of symptoms (they had never been able to
duplicate my reported issue when they were driving). When I picked up
the car, it was immediately obvious that the problem had been fixed. I
drove it to a nearby mall and did some low speed stop-n-go driving to
make sure. Whew -- I _much_ prefer driving a car that's working properly...

Final bill was about $200 -- all of it for the transmission work which
presumably didn't really have to be done. They didn't charge anything
for the EGR valve replacement itself.

Garin
**************************************************************

___Good Luck

___Wayne
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wayne,

GREAT-FIND, :D Tom will be one Happy-Trooper when he gets the EGR valve Replaced. Man what a find and what a Search. Your (Wayne) the Man. 2-Thumbs Up for you on this.

Hey a Late Birthday Present from a Buddy. Very Cool :cool:

Terry

Well, I went in bright and early to drop my car off. They said with no indicator lights it ment that there was nothing wrong with the car and it must be some external force like the fuel or something.

Seeing that they had no clue about how to fix it and the fact they tried to convince me not to even leave it, I decided that I wouldn't have the work done. They asked if there was anything else they could do for me and I said "well. I could use an oil change." They said they could do it in 1/2 hour and I figured I could still be on time for work if they did it. 1 1/2 hours later my car was ready and I was 45 minutes late for work. After insisting they don't touch the tires they decided to lower them anyway and the tech gave the excuse "no body told me" And started to defend his actions by saying the usual "unsafe, etc." mantra.

So I take it to my work and the first corner I took I almost lost control. These "underinflated" tires sure do loose a lot in the handling department from 60psi down to 30.

I will probably purchase my own egr and gaskits or whatever and see if I can have lakedude look up the proceedure and tell me what tourque to tighten the bolts to. (You listening lakedude? I think you have the manual don't you?)

What a lousy day.

Oh, and the guy looked at my trip gauge and it said 48.8 and said thats decent. I told him its almost 10mpg lower than what I normaly get. Then he looked at my gauges and said "those take power too and will reduce FE". Umm no kidding. 10mpg worth?

There are tons of things I do to my car that reduce FE and they have been in my car since pretty much day one. I know my car and I wish the dealership would have listened to what I had to say.

End of rant.

Well, I went in bright and early to drop my car off. They said with no indicator lights it ment that there was nothing wrong with the car and it must be some external force like the fuel or something.

Seeing that they had no clue about how to fix it and the fact they tried to convince me not to even leave it, I decided that I wouldn't have the work done. They asked if there was anything else they could do for me and I said "well. I could use an oil change." They said they could do it in 1/2 hour and I figured I could still be on time for work if they did it. 1 1/2 hours later my car was ready and I was 45 minutes late for work. After insisting they don't touch the tires they decided to lower them anyway and the tech gave the excuse "no body told me" And started to defend his actions by saying the usual "unsafe, etc." mantra.

So I take it to my work and the first corner I took I almost lost control. These "underinflated" tires sure do loose a lot in the handling department from 60psi down to 30.

I will probably purchase my own egr and gaskits or whatever and see if I can have lakedude look up the proceedure and tell me what tourque to tighten the bolts to. (You listening lakedude? I think you have the manual don't you?)

What a lousy day.

Oh, and the guy looked at my trip gauge and it said 48.8 and said thats decent. I told him its almost 10mpg lower than what I normaly get. Then he looked at my gauges and said "those take power too and will reduce FE". Umm no kidding. 10mpg worth?

There are tons of things I do to my car that reduce FE and they have been in my car since pretty much day one. I know my car and I wish the dealership would have listened to what I had to say.

End of rant.

Tom,

That did not go well. :(

Terry

BTW, What about that (Wayne) fellow we know? He will install the EGR for you. :D

he looked at my gauges and said "those take power too and will reduce FE".
Should have told him good thing you didn't order the Honda fog light kit. If your gauges cost 10 MPG just imagine a set of high-power lights! :rolleyes:

**** tom i know how it feels when the dealership doesn't want things done your way however, i got lucky and they didn't touch my tires as well filled the oil to where I wanted it. Unfortnately like you I got the jokes and the FE pointing so its a good reason for them to laugh and point at which I can stop one day if I prove I can get 600 miles to my tank.

Almost there, should check out another honda dealership. Don't let one deter you.

Should have told him good thing you didn't order the Honda fog light kit. If your gauges cost 10 MPG just imagine a set of high-power lights! :rolleyes:

Did you see the front of my car ;).

I just ordered the egr valve and gaskit. Knowing my luck my car will run fine from now on and I'll have wasted the money ;)

I received the egr today. Now to find time to put it in.

wow you held up to this long? car must be suffering ;P

It was on order ever since the dealer refused to look at my car. I think the order got lost because when I sent an email asking where it was they said that they were sorry and would ship it out immediately. I think its about a 4mpg hit.

Hi Tom:

___You heading on over so we can put the thing in or what? And press your tires back up as well ;)

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I'm watching my son from 11 to 12 and then heading over for the drop. Then getting the allignment. I probably won't be home until 6 or so. If you want to head over here now we could probably put it in before 12. My son can "help" us. I need a torque wrench though. And metric sockets (I think 14mm)

Just a follow up for those that may read this thread in the future. Its been about 5 or 6 days since we replaced the EGR on my car. My commutes to work show up as 62-64mpg (which means in reality 56-58 when calculated). This is about a 4 mpg increase than previously so it does look like this tank will be particularly good and could be one of my best. Considering I probably added weight to my car with a new coilover suspension and I have increased drag from a set of new tires I would say the egr was definatly the cause.

The car hasn't bucked yet and seems to run a little smoother and holds at 100mpg or so on the iFCD during cruise.

Glad you car is back to it's old self! Wouldn't want you to start getting lousy FE and have to commute on a llama...

:bananalama:

Sorry, I just can't stop clicking on that emoticon.

Should be nice when those tires get worn in!

Oh, I read the thread from the begining and noticed hot georgia asking for pictures. Sorry, forgot to take them. I'll try to get some of the old egr and take one of the new one installed. It was just two bolts that had to be removed and one electrical connection. It took about 5-10 minutes.