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Honda Press Release (http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=4510)

Early 2009 - Global Small Hybrid - 5 door hatch, 5 passenger, with new lower cost lightweight IMA - styling FCX Clarity-like.

Following this, car based on the CR-Z sports concept.

AND, the rumored but now confirmed Fit Hybrid.

-mr. bill

Very very nice. The Fit is already an amazing car. It'll be great to see that as a hybrid. I hope the CRZ production car turns out good numbers though.

Ooooh, oooh, oooh! Please have a manual in the fit!

Clarification - Fit Hybrid is *NOT* confirmed for US market. Doesn't mean it won't be coming here, but it doesn't mean it will be either. (MT or not is therefore a second order question.)

GSH and CR-Z are confirmed for US market.

-mr. bill

Andrew
They will all have CVT's! It would be nice to have a city and hy-way mode? H

I hope a Fit Hybrid can break 52 mpg, but the Saturn Astra 5 dr looks nice stylewise. Maybe I'd rather have an Astra than a Fit, because it might be way bigger at 2 mpg less hwy.

Ooooh, oooh, oooh! Please have a manual in the fit!

doubt it,
just like the crz won't have a manual transmission. :(:(:(:(:(

I assume no manual transmission, because the average driver put into both the CVT and the 5/6-spd, most will do better with the CVT, and push the engine a bit more in the manual.

They have to look at overall numbers and customer satisfaction, not the extreme side of the most apt drivers. The average person coming from a truck/sports car/other non-hybrid/efficient car will run up the rpms in a stick naturally and subconsciously, keeping to their past acceleration rates ... wearing the drivetrain down faster, and definitely end up complaining about terrible mileage.

The CVT is a new beast for most drivers, it doesn't shift like their past automatics, so, again, they may be more incline to drive is softer and slower, thus reducing wear and increasing mileage.



At least that is how I break it down on a logical level. It suits the company in the big picture to deny the few that could use a stick well in a hybrid to keep the overall opinion of their hybrids in the green, so to speak.

I am sure if someone really, really wanted a stick in one of these cars ... and they had the resources ($$$$$$), they could match up a manual to it ;)



I have come quite accustomed to the CVT, and don't mind at all. In fact, test driving a Hyundai recently, I found the stick a bit odd, and I never thought I would say that. I loved my manual sports cars, now, the CVT is all I need.

I think they can do a bit more tuning with fuel maps, fuel cut-offs, and other programs to make the efficiency a little better, and a little closer to stick for hypermilers ... but average joe/joelene, they will get better in the CVT.

It is great these are coming out ... and now I have something to look forward to. I kind of gave up on a new Civic Hybrid, with the average lot price where I check well over 20,000 ... and I just don't want to spend that much (hence the reason I test drove a Hyundai recently).

I hope this GSH looks decent, or the CR-Z is sub-20k in price. If so, they may be looking at two purchases ... one from me, and one from my roommate. Otherwise, I will just look for a CRX HF or a Civic HX and fix it up. Nothing saves money like not having a car payment ... I find it is hard to put 20 grand in an old car like a CRX, if you are just tuning and cleaning it up (not 'rice' and racing it up). I have known CRX's to get over 50 mpg, so, the efficiency is there ... so, the newness is what the extra cost is for (and extra insurance rates). The CRX can be found in a stick as well ;) But a 10-15 grand CR-Z might be something worth the extra to me ... especially if they tune it for 70+ mpg (instead of a 'sports' car feel sacrificing efficiency).

FTLOB, I believe the reasons they pulled the stick included lack of demand and extra stress to the battery (easier to lug and therefore use more battery). I wish they would bring them back but I don't think they will because the same problems are still there.

I doubt the CRZ will deliver 70mpg without extreme hypermiling. I'm guessing it will be a 40+mpg sportscar based on the thick tires and enormous wheels. It only vaguely resembles an Insight and where the Insight was the evolution of the CRX HX, I believe the CRZ is intended to be the evolution of the CRX Si.

Maybe I'm wrong though?

FTLOB, I believe the reasons they pulled the stick included lack of demand and extra stress to the battery (easier to lug and therefore use more battery). ...

Sean is absolutely correct on this one.

For example, just during 2007 Honda replaced a little over 400 battery packs in total. In an eye popping sampling, the vast majority of these replacements happened in vehicles with a manual transmission. Honda has been watching this for quite a while so it is safe to assume they don't like it at all.

It is a pity because many of us would easily pick a MT equipped vehicle over a CVT no matter what a CVT model has to offer in terms of ease of use and so on. But for Honda MT hybrids just don't make sense no matter how you slice it.

Cheers;

MSantos

It is more of a hope that they could meet the Insight's first year mark in mpg.

50+ mpg though should be the minimum. Otherwise, what is the point? They can make non-hybrids get 30-40+ mpg if they try. Especially if they do away with all the extra air bags and such that I personally don't feel I need ... that means less weight, so less to make accelerate.

As many here have complained with the Fit, they sometimes gear these cars too high, hopefully, with the CVT, this won't be a problem.



I am really just trying to justify spending 15 grand on a new car, when I could have 6 grand total in a used car and have it look and run like new, and get the same or better gas mileage (CRX HF, Civic HX/VX, other small cars of the past). 5 mpg isn't enough of a savings or a major leap in health for the environment/reduction on foreign oil dependency to make a difference (especially when making fewer, more efficient trips at off-peak hours ... or even keeping your tires properly inflated can make nearly as much or more of a difference). SO ... I suppose I should start a thread and ask, why buy a new car instead of an efficient old car of similar mpg? What other advantage is there other than new/fancy/gadgets?


I don't see how 10 years later, even if the CRZ was a CRX Si replacement, that they couldn't get 60+ mpg if it was lightweight and updated technology compared to the Insight, as nice as it is, is now becoming a (great)-great grandfather (or at least its IMA is).

So a small displacement, low-friction 4-cylinder, a CVT, and a properly adjusted IMA ... I think they should have no problems.


To take from the other thread, saying how the assist seems to add performance instead of economy, if they instead cut assist when the engine is revving higher, but implemented it when you needed that extra little boost to your mph or hold your speed on a slight incline, it would make more sense to me ... instead, it only kicks in once you are either accelerating aggressively or under an extreme load. Though I am sure each of us have our own ways we think the assist could benefit us better.


Maybe I just expect too much, always expecting progress instead of easy-way-out or stagnation. I want to see the big leaps that happened with Tesla's generation. Big dreams, I have.

FTLOB, the actual behavior of IMA presently is to assist at very light throttle. Essentially, they went with an engine that they felt people would consider so underpowered they wouldn't drive the car at all. When driving steady state, they wouldn't notice so for the most part (unless on a steep incline) you only have the engine running. It doesn't take much load to trigger assist though -- all so the average person would perceive the performance as "normal." We all wish assist would only trigger on aggressive acceleration or at extreme loads!!

I'm sure they could build another, better Insight. I don't think that could be a performance car though -- the tech is further along but not to that point just yet. It would definitely be nice to see a "sportscar" out there that when driven reasonably returned 60mpg and when driven aggressively still returned better than 40mpg. Hypermiling might bring it up into the mid 70's and past that for really dedicated hypermilers if that was the case.

We'll just have to wait to see what comes out!

It would definitely be nice to see a "sportscar" out there that when driven reasonably returned 60mpg and when driven aggressively still returned better than 40mpg.

I'm sure it could be done, but only if people were once again willing to accept as a "sports car" something with the performance (and features!) of an MG TC... Sadly, most "sports car" people are not willing to do that. I'm on the fence about it, myself. I don't mind the lack of cupholders and airbags and such, but being outrun by a bicyclist would probably get old pretty quickly. ;)

(Hmm... MG TC with a Geo Metro engine? Or an IMA-less Insight engine? Hmm!!!)

-soD

well, I might need some coaching, though I can turn some decent numbers. I am going to try and make HybridFest this year. I probably have some ways that are not the best but seem to work for me. I also am interested in the 'Hybrid test drives' since I have never driven an Insight before, nor the HCH II (or any other hybrid for that matter).

I am adjusting to the hilly nature of central Wisconsin. I am averaging over 50 mpg right now, and can get over 60 if I didn't keep getting someone behind me on a two lane with a solid line. I do sacrifice mileage to hold speed limit in that situation. On the 1200 mile trip up, I managed about 55 mpg with no free space besides what I needed to see with the rear view mirror. I was a tad bit overloaded, and I am not a light guy either.

I know the reason to not want assist is to keep from needing regeneration. Sometimes I just wish I could use less engine and a bit more motor to get up to speed, though I don't need quite so much anymore, as I adjust to having most speed limits 25-35 mph in the city, with a couple 45 mph sections ... until I leave town. It is quite nice, I enjoy the slower pace.

I actually don't care for extra performance. What the HCH I does is more than enough for me ... in fact, this drivetrain in a car that weights 1000 lbs less (like the Insight, or, possibly in the new GSH/CR-Z), would seem quite extreme, way more than adequate, and with that power to weight ratio driven for economy, I would think could net really great results. To me, more power, less weight, same gear ratios = faster acceleration at any point of the rpm curve at any load. So, same light pedal pressure should equal faster and eqaully-to-more efficient in my mind, please correct me if I am wrong.


I will be keeping my eyes open next year for the next to impossible ... a mint CRX HF, a well cared for Insight ... while at the same time hoping to test drive these new hybrids and see how they fit. Being a bigger guy, I just don't like the room getting in and out of the HCH I. If the steering wheel telescoped or was set further back, I could manage a bit better.

Thanks for keeping in the discussion. I can't wait for more information to be released on these new vehicles. I still find it sad they quit on the Insight. Think of how many would be sold today with gas prices soaring over $4/gallon.

FTLOB- Very good comments! I for one would like to disable the assist or be able to do it. Watch the gas consumption when car is being assisted, Gulp!!! H

I also am interested in the 'Hybrid test drives' since
Honda has chosen not to participate at this year's Hybridfest, so they will not have any vehicles there for test drives. Although there will be plenty of Hybridfest members there with their Honda's. Maybe someone will let you give one a drive. :)

Well, I'm thrilled to read rumors (posted elsewhere) that the Fit Hybrid is likely to be based on the Insight drivetrain, which apparently drops right in due to similar dimensions. Would have plenty of power for me. Now the only question is whether it will come to North America.

Honda, please bring it!

Well, that is mighty interesting! I suppose 67hp should be enough to move 5 people but the numbers won't be up to Insight levels... I would think they would use the updated version to be put into the GSH and the newer Civic though?

Well, that is mighty interesting! I suppose 67hp should be enough to move 5 people but the numbers won't be up to Insight levels... I would think they would use the updated version to be put into the GSH and the newer Civic though?

It will probably have a little more hp than the Insight (based on the Insight drivetrain) if it's going to be sold in the US based on their idea of 'marketable'. Hopefully they still keep the engine pretty small and can be up in the high 50 MPGs EPA.

Kirk

bye bye Zuki Hello CRZ... I am watching this one.. and intend to join the hybrid ranks when this comes out!

FTLOB- Very good comments! I for one would like to disable the assist or be able to do it. Watch the gas consumption when car is being assisted, Gulp!!! H

Quite right, Harold & Sean. But I was also almost "assured" that part of the iFCD's display of fuel usage actually includes the energy cost factor of the assist as well. Apparently, that is supposed to help explain why many of us get better calculated MPG's on the HCH-II than what the display actually indicates. I have to admit that there appears to be some "funky" algorithms at work here...

Anyhow, the HCH-II represents a significant departure from all previous IMA platforms in that even the throttle governance is heavily dependent on what the software dictates. In the previous IMA generations many of the behaviors were almost hardwired and due to the relative simplicity of the modules and their interactions they could be "easily" interfered with simple electrical hacks.
With the HCH-II (and the upcoming platforms) all modules talk to each other via the CAN bus and that means that anyone who's going to produce an affordable and effective assist inhibit is likely going to be wasting his/her time and money. I found this out the hard way. :o

So, my hope is that Honda agrees to implement a software controlled mode to minimize the Assist Affinity by 50% or more. I really don't care if you have to do something weird like:
- Tap the throttle 3 times before accelerating
or
- Light tap on the brake pedal while accelerating

...then resetting the assist inhibit if the RPMS go above 1500 RPM to return it to normal. Etc.

Anyhow, lets wait and see what they will deliver on this front. ;)


Cheers;

MSantos

http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/economy/honda-announces-plans-for-new-small-stand-alone-hybrid-in-2009/

http://files.windingroad.com/newsuploads/2008/05/honda-fcx-clarityshrunkhl.jpg

Boy! I like the looks of that.I see a bit of VW and Civic in there, Nice size as well. H

http://news.windingroad.com/body-stylesmarket-segment/economy/honda-announces-plans-for-new-small-stand-alone-hybrid-in-2009/

http://files.windingroad.com/newsuploads/2008/05/honda-fcx-clarityshrunkhl.jpg

That's a photoshopped version of the Honda FCX Clarity (http://news.windingroad.com/car-buying/2007-la-auto-show-2009-honda-fcx-clarity/) (as stated in the article). But hopefully they do take some styling cues from it.

http://leisureguy.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/honda_fcx_clarity.jpg

Kirk

Hi,

Motor Trend has spy shots of a test mule for the new 2009 Honda Compact Hybrid. They say this test mule is based on a Japanese marker Airwave wagon. The tags look like California...

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied_vehicles/112_0709_honda_global_small_hybrid/index.html

Hi,

Motor Trend has spy shots of a test mule for the new 2009 Honda Compact Hybrid. They say this test mule is based on a Japanese marker Airwave wagon. The tags look like California...

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied_vehicles/112_0709_honda_global_small_hybrid/index.html



Nice! They mention, reportedly, it is should exceed Prius fuel economy ratings.

looks a bit too much like a minivan to me :P I used to drive one of those when I was 16, but, I don't know ... and high teens?

well, I can hope the -smaller and lighter- CR-Z will be not only cheaper, but beat this thing as well ... so a second step above the Prius ;)

Though, I suppose I could use the extra space now and then; I still have this odd desire for a small two seater.

Waiting a year to get the gritty details is going to seem nearly an eternity!