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Sadly the media has give a dispropornate amount of attention to drafting semis - infamously half of the video in this story > Danger, Danger - Will Robinson!!! Hypermiling!!! (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10733&highlight=lacey) Whatever the motives, they are making a flea the size of King Kong - sensationalizing a road hazard way out of proportion.

This sticky is to educate our membership CleanMPG does not endorse drafting. The circumstances you could do this are rare - you would have to be on a freeway out of traffic with the trucker traveling at a constant and moderate speed. It's likely the trucker will shake anyone tailgating off as drafting has been mentioned frequently in their circles....many of them join to rant about this and we tell them we are not promoting this!

This term is now in the glossary so nobody will have any illusions of where we stand on this.

The practice of improving fuel economy by closely following a large vehicle as a windblock. Birds have used the V-formation from time memoriable and pilots from the earliest days of aviation...gains of up to 50% can be gained tailgating semis on the highway.

Having said all that, it's both a dangerous and rare practice among hypermilers. It's received a disproportionate amount of publicity in the media.

CLEANMPG DOES NOT ENDORSE DRAFTING!

Please observe the No Zone

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/519/blindspot_overhead_1_.gif

Other things to be elaborated in more detail is CleanMPG promotes friendly driving

letting others know your intentions whenever possible
letting drivers from behind pass in any way possible
obstructing others a little as possible by staying in the right lane, reverse passing, avoiding rush hour, etc.

I don't like drafting semi's because I'd get decapitated by one if I ran into it. Would do 3+ car lentgh behind, and I upgraded my front brakes for insurance in drafting. Speeding 70 mph Metro buses are my favorite, and I break 50+ mpg doing them!

Can we add to this something about road courtesy and folowing lane usage laws? That is the other main complaint I get. When I tell people about hypermiling, their first reaction is "Oh! So YOU are that nitwit who drives 15mph under the limit in the left lane!" No, thats stupid and dangerous, illegal in most states, definately not me, and Im pretty sure it isnt most of you. If there is a right lane, we are in it. If there is only one lane, we stay fairly close to the speed limit if people are behind us, unless there is a good reason not to such as a red light ahead. Nor are we the people who pull out 50ft in front of you when you are doing the speed limit and force you to slam your brakes because they forget to use the blessed Tall Skinny Pedal.

I would like to think that we are not advocating the "screw you, Im going to do what I want" attitude, because that is the exact same attitude that GSP drivers have when they tailgate, race around and generally have no regard for other drivers. We are not them; are we?

Edit: in the definition, just for grammer: "It's" is a contraction of "It is". The first time it is used correctly, the second time I believe you want to say, "It has."

This sticky is a works-in-progress.

Among other things, poking in the passing lane is not encouaged here.

In fact, he promote letting drivers every opportunity to know our intentions and to pass us whenever possible.

CleanMPG doesn't advocate it. But its got its advocates. I am guessing there are a lot of 20 somethings doing it. I saw a bumper sticker that said: "I'm not tailgating, I'm drafting". So that's the reason. :-} (The advocates don't include those wild and crazy guys on Mythbusters who determined it worked but it was way too dangerous to even consider.)


--des

This sticky is a works-in-progress.

It should also probably be made a sticky in this case.

H PDK:

___Stickied!

___Good Luck and thanks

___Wayne

We should compile a list of all our complaints and recalling occasions when a hypermiler was tailgated by a semi or other large vehicle.

When a news organization makes a hypermiling report and focuses on drafting we should send the list to them, of all the occasions where WE were tailgated by a semi truck.

And then mentioned that CleanMPG does not endorse drafting.

Perhaps we should change the options in the Mileage Logs to reflect this philosophy. Remove "L = Close-In Draft" and possibly "C = Drafting-Forced Auto Stop" as well. New members entering tank data are likely to come across these options (the existence of which implies endorsement) before they run into this sticky (in just one of the currently 52 subforums on CleanMPG).

Perhaps we should change the options in the Mileage Logs to reflect this philosophy. Remove "L = Close-In Draft" and possibly "C = Drafting-Forced Auto Stop" as well. New members entering tank data are likely to come across these options (the existence of which implies endorsement) before they run into this sticky (in just one of the currently 52 subforums on CleanMPG).

Wow your right “close in draft” in an option when logging tanks (ya I have not logged my tanks yet). I totally agree, with that even being there it gives me the impression it IS indorsed or accepted.

You may not like this idea, but I will put it out there.
You could leave it, but change it. Put a note next to it stating something to the effect “if you check this box you will be excluded from obtaining Hypermiling status”
This would allow you to clarify that is dangers and unlawful, and still track how often this technique is used.

Or… maybe better.

Add a section of “Dangers and sometimes Unlawful techniques”. Do not make anything in this section checkable, just have it there as an reminder of things NOT indorsed.

Perhaps we should change the options in the Mileage Logs to reflect this philosophy. Remove "L = Close-In Draft" and possibly "C = Drafting-Forced Auto Stop" as well. New members entering tank data are likely to come across these options (the existence of which implies endorsement) before they run into this sticky (in just one of the currently 52 subforums on CleanMPG).

I said the same thing earlier this week or late last week and Wayne was going to delete the close in drafting, then a couple of people said they wanted it to cover when they were forced to draft by those cutting in front of them. I said delete it anyway. I think the issue is still open. But I sure would like to see it go.

I said the same thing earlier this week or late last week and Wayne was going to delete the close in drafting, then a couple of people said they wanted it to cover when they were forced to draft by those cutting in front of them. I said delete it anyway. I think the issue is still open. But I sure would like to see it go.

Personally, I don't think that situation really counts. To me, using a hypermiling technique (and checking a box) implies that it was done intentionally.

One of the weird things about drafting is that it's possible to do it unintentionally, whether by someone cutting you off or the imperceptible speed changes that bring you from >2s following distance to <2s following distance. I wouldn't call those situations drafting (though I don't know what I would call them either).

Besides, it's very hard to unintentionally do other hypermiling techniques, maybe FAS if your engine unexpectedly stalls, but that's about it.

Close-in drafting is unnecessary. I recently started trying out drafting as a technique to improve my FE and have achieved nearly 50 mpg with hardly any close-in drafting. A 2 second spacing between you and the truck in front of you is enough to achieve significant improvements in your gas mileage. 2 seconds doesn't sound like much, but it is a safe distance on a rural interstate. The only time it becomes dangerous is if you are driving distracted, like talking on your cell phone or taking in the scenery. Whenever drafting, I keep my eyes fixed on the tail lights of the truck in front of me AT ALL TIMES. As long as you stay alert to the truck in front of you, I believe drafting is a perfectly safe and very effective method.

theyre talking about closer than 1 second drafting, like some fast n furios stuff where there would be a scene of a guy crawling on the hood, latching a grappling hook to the semi, attaching it to the car, and the driver doing a FAS.

maybe thats a lil exaggerated.

its 6 am tho and i havent gone to bed yet.

It would seem that there are FIVE references to drafting in the mileage log techniques used "menu" as well as a couple of shutdown/FAS ones. This may give some the impression that this site does promote these techniques.

Interestingly,some basic techniques are not posted on the menu - driving at/below speed limit, avoiding hard breaking/acceleration, tires up to max sidewall pressure... I guess this is because these are basic techniques already practiced by most on this site.

theyre talking about closer than 1 second drafting, like some fas n furious stuff where there would be a scene of a guy crawling on the hood, latching a grappling hook to the semi, attaching it to the car, and the driver doing a FAS.
Spelling corrected ;)

On the topic of drafting I have to speak up and ask you to pull down the picture of and reference to "surf drafting" as well. at least 3 times a week some road problem develops that calls for a quick lane change. I hit the signal, check my mirror, and there's somebody hanging our right off the back corner of my trailer.
My truck gets 6.5 MPG on a good day. I don't want to brake unnecessary either. What ends up happening is I ease the throttle to get my "shadow" to pass so I have a clear piece of road to change lanes, but the nit-wit is surf drafting so he slows down too. In the end I have to hit the brakes, throwing away all that hard won momentum.
If you hyper-miler types want to use distant drafting I won't fuss, But hanging out right off my back corner one lane over in unacceptable. It blocks the passing lane and robs the drivers of large vehicles of options in an emergency. Surf drafting is not quite as dangerous as close in drafting, but it is every bit as rude, annoying, and troublesome.
Another thing to factor into the question of surf drafting is tire failure. A 22.5 inch truck tire inflated to 105 psi is a LOT of stored energy. Truck tire repair shops inflate those tires in a steel cage because the energy released when a tire fails can be lethal. A tire also tends to pitch large very heavy chunks of rubber at high speeds. People have been killed by tires.
I work very hard at operating safely. I recently won a safety award for 500,000 safe, accident free miles. I'll try very hard not to hurt you out on the highway, but when you insist on remaining so close you may exceed my ability to save you from your own foolishness.

On the topic of drafting I have to speak up and ask you to pull down the picture of and reference to "surf drafting" as well. at least 3 times a week some road problem develops that calls for a quick lane change. I hit the signal, check my mirror, and there's somebody hanging our right off the back corner of my trailer.
My truck gets 6.5 MPG on a good day. I don't want to brake unnecessary either. What ends up happening is I ease the throttle to get my "shadow" to pass so I have a clear piece of road to change lanes, but the nit-wit is surf drafting so he slows down too. In the end I have to hit the brakes, throwing away all that hard won momentum.
If you hyper-miler types want to use distant drafting I won't fuss, But hanging out right off my back corner one lane over in unacceptable. It blocks the passing lane and robs the drivers of large vehicles of options in an emergency. Surf drafting is not quite as dangerous as close in drafting, but it is every bit as rude, annoying, and troublesome.
Another thing to factor into the question of surf drafting is tire failure. A 22.5 inch truck tire inflated to 105 psi is a LOT of stored energy. Truck tire repair shops inflate those tires in a steel cage because the energy released when a tire fails can be lethal. A tire also tends to pitch large very heavy chunks of rubber at high speeds. People have been killed by tires.
I work very hard at operating safely. I recently won a safety award for 500,000 safe, accident free miles. I'll try very hard not to hurt you out on the highway, but when you insist on remaining so close you may exceed my ability to save you from your own foolishness.

"Surf drafting" just seems like hanging out in someone's blind spot to me. I know it's a nasty surprise when I go to change lanes and have to abort because someone was hanging just out of my normal view. When the "someone" in question is a semi I agree it goes from being merely annoying to dangerous. The defensive driver in me won't let me intentionally surf draft for the few MPG it might gain me.

Huge congrats on the safety award - that's quite the achievement! Thank you for setting an example out there. :flag:

Hi BackOffMyTruck:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14315

___Good Luck

___Wayne

I try to avoid drafting anyone for any reason let alone FE. It's too much stress, and it's too dependent on the other drivers' actions, 2 things that I try to avoid in my hypermiling experiences.

The information is important enough to be there so that, at the very least, people can recognize a draft situation. Since drafting is dependent on the actions of others, it's also possible to draft unintentionally.

Also, a fuller view of information is nearly always a good thing. If we don't present and frame information regarding drafting, someone may hear about it elsewhere as a "great fuel saving technique" without understanding the consequences.

Staring at at the back of a large vehicle in front that dominates your view has to be one of the most awful unenjoyable ways to take a journey. Add stress from being too close and I'd rather stay at home

Resurrecting this thread a little -- stumbled across another
article (http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=60635) in which it's clear that someone was drinking the koolaid.
The ATA is one of the larger/influential trucking organizations,
so it would be good to try and get this one fully retracted.
.
Should I chase this one? I've probably got a few hard questions
for the guy.
.
_H*

I wonder if they will be as hard on one of their own as they are on the supposed menace of hypermilers?:eyebrow::rolleyes:

They say:

"ATA recently learned that drafting is being promoted by two websites dedicated to “hypermiling,” and several recent news articles have described the hazardous fad."

Why don't they name the sites?

If there are two such site, perhaps we should make a serious effort to change what they are doing.

And even if they can name two site it is worth pointing out to the group that more balance reporting is needed in that there are mainline hypermilers and hypermiler sites that condemn the practice.

I went to the American Trucking Association web site (http://www.truckline.com/index) and did a search on hypermiling and came up with only one link. (http://www.truckline.com/cgi-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=10&page_id=6226944&query=hypermiling&hiword=HYPERMILERS+hypermiling+) It is for a press release over a year old.

One thing I've noticed about many trucking, off-roading, and gearhead forums - they close much of their boards to the public - not a very good commentary about the citizenship of those members. In fact, I often have to type characters on an image as a guest.

Anyway, over a year ago, I approached an administrator after passing thru Fort Knox-like security. After offering them to post at CleanMPG and me do likewise, I got a meaningless "glad we agree". :rolleyes: .

I tried to wander around the ATA site too, and this is what I get:
.


Server Error in '/truckline' Application.
______________________________________________________________________

Index and length must refer to a location within the string. Parameter name: length

Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of
the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more
information about the error and where it originated in the code.

Exception Details: System.ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Index and
length must refer to a location within the string. Parameter name:
length

Source Error:

An unhandled exception was generated during the execution of the
current web request. Information regarding the origin and location of
the exception can be identified using the exception stack trace below.

Stack Trace:

[ArgumentOutOfRangeException: Index and length must refer to a location within the string.
Parameter name: length]
System.String.Substring(Int32 startIndex, Int32 length) +208
Karamasoft.WebControls.UltimateMenu.CreateMenuForDLB(HtmlTextWriter output,
XmlNode& groupNode, String groupId, String topLevel) +3044
Karamasoft.WebControls.UltimateMenu.Render(HtmlTextWriter output) +3441
System.Web.UI.Control.RenderControl(HtmlTextWriter writer) +243
System.Web.UI.Control.RenderChildren(HtmlTextWriter writer) +72
System.Web.UI.HtmlControls.HtmlForm.RenderChildren(HtmlTextWriter writer) +44
System.Web.UI.HtmlControls.HtmlForm.Render(HtmlTextWriter output) +262
System.Web.UI.Control.RenderControl(HtmlTextWriter writer) +243
System.Web.UI.Control.RenderChildren(HtmlTextWriter writer) +72
System.Web.UI.Control.Render(HtmlTextWriter writer) +7
System.Web.UI.Control.RenderControl(HtmlTextWriter writer) +243
System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain() +1926
______________________________________________________________________

Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:1.1.4322.2032;
ASP.NET Version:1.1.4322.2032


.
I have to run some errands this morning but I'll see if I can't raise
an actual human or two later today.
.
_H*

I think we should also include here that treating stops as yields and not allowing people to pass/forcing them to drive "slow" is not something that is endorsed as well.

Especially driving slow in the Left lane. That's what they usually try to latch on to.

Especially driving slow in the Left lane. That's what they usually try to latch on to.

I still say the problem is idiots trying to go fast in the slow lane. :angry:

Especially speeding semi's.

I still say the problem is idiots trying to go fast in the slow lane. :angry:

Especially speeding semi's.

Yes, but that's an accepted practice. As for treating stop signs as yield signs, I think the folks that do that more often are the same ones weaving recklessly in and out of lanes, honking, flashing lights, etc. That seems to be accepted practice too, since I never see any of these people pulled over by police.

I reached Clayton Boyce at the ATA, who said the basis for the
article was from over a year ago, and that he's personally talked
with Wayne about this stuff. His phone was having trouble so
he could only hear about half of what I was saying, but he was
reasonably cordial and definitely wanted to hear more about the
"safer take" we're promoting and asked to take it to email. So
I've got a little piece I'm trying to finish up on "what is
hypermiling from a safety standpoint" which I'll basically send
him, along with the standard query of "what's the best way to
get trucks off my butt without calling EVERY one of them in".
.
_H*

Here's a draft of the "what is hypermiling" piece I've decided
to try and finish before following up with Mr. Boyce and optionally
the eTrucker people too. Comments welcome. Some variant of
this could help add to a body of general CleanMPG statements
on the topic, if someone wants.

=====

What is hypermiling, from a traffic safety standpoint?
.
It is NOT about drafting trucks, or turning one's car completely off
at highway speeds, or poking along and blocking traffic -- despite
what certain uninformed and misguided publicity people at AAA and some
other organizations would have us believe.
.
Hypermiling is about total concentration and precise, smooth control
of a vehicle. The primary effects are minized fuel consumption and
increased safety. When a hypermiler is out traveling on the roads,
attaining high efficiency is merely part of what's going on -- the
entire process becomes an integrated whole, a flowing union between
human and machine and the surrounding environment. In this state of
awareness I stay 100% focused on the task of DRIVING, keeping track
of everything in front of me, behind me, to the sides, and what's
transiting the blind spots. It is a highly predictive process, in
which I'm watching relative rates of other vehicles fore and aft,
what lane they're in and figuring where they're likely to be in the
next ten seconds, who's heading in from an on-ramp or side street and
how fast and bunched-up they are, and what the terrain is doing up
ahead past the merge point ... and at the same time, watching my RPM
and engine load and battery current and speed and altitude [yes,
altitude, on the GPS -- it matters] and calculating the best control
change to adapt to all of that input with as little "lurch" as
possible. I also determine what I can about the attitude of nearby
drivers based on actions, facial expressions, or any other kinesthetic
language I can read from the vehicles or the people in them, and take
that into account. With practice and attention, one can obtain an
astonishing amount of information just from how the nose of someone
else's car moves. Other more subtle observations most people would
never think about, such as soft-looking tires on another car, also
contributes to the equation and the possibilities of what could
happen in the immediate future.
.
This is my ONLY job when I'm on the road. Anything extraneous such
as a phone or coffee or radio would detract from that, which is for
the most part unacceptable. Any distraction absorbs some of that
essential mental bandwidth, and coming at the wrong moment that could
be fatal. Some minor distractions are inevitable for anyone on the
road but I strive to minimize those, leaving the stereo off and the
phone put away, and while the coffee is an important part of my own
personal road-trip fuel it rides in a covered mug with a straw that
eliminates any risk of spilling or losing my sightline to what's ahead.
.
And all this without cruise control, preferring to lock my right foot
into known "sweet spot" operational ranges for the car's engine and
drivetrain and tweak that up and down based on what's ahead.
.
The primary means of risk-reduction and the key to making this all
work is DISTANCE between vehicles, which allows the time and visibility
to make the correct responses in a non-abrupt fashion. Abruptness
coupled with no reaction leeway is what kills. Generous following
distance is step 1 and the easiest for any driver to establish by
simply not trying to go faster than a car ahead. Because of traffic
patterns it isn't always possible to maintain the space cushion in
all directions, particularly to the rear, but the hypermiling
community evolves techniques both active and passive to deal with
that too. Part of safe, efficient driving is always trying to
re-establish that generous space when something impinges on it.
Obviously, any sort of aerodynamic drafting would be completely at
odds with that goal.
.
This style of driving implies an understanding of the physics in play,
never losing sight of the fact that all vehicles are large heavy
objects and it takes a lot of energy to get them moving and stopped
again. Doing so efficiently yet smoothly in changing traffic conditions
is an elegant blend of art and science, and as complex as it may begin
to sound on paper it is almost paradoxically a much more relaxing,
unhurried way to drive than what we usually see on today's roads.
And destinations are reached in pretty much the same timeframe as by
those who feel the need to be aggressive and threatening to other
road users, proving time and again that the self-important illusion
of being in a hurry gains nothing but vastly increased risk. The
bottom line is that hypermilers are hands-down the safest drivers
out there.
.
_H* 080925

Semis don't have a problem drafting behind me. But, I don't like stones chipping my paint so I don't follow trucks.

Yes, but that's an accepted practice. As for treating stop signs as yield signs, I think the folks that do that more often are the same ones weaving recklessly in and out of lanes, honking, flashing lights, etc. That seems to be accepted practice too, since I never see any of these people pulled over by police.

Generally since there's some ashat camping in the far left going really slow or refusing to pass, those with lead feet try to go around the right. A like the TX state law, ALL traffic stay right unless passing. Statistics show it's the safest way to drive anyways. :cool:

I remember as a kid, seeing some early 80's Mazda 626 under the tail end of a trailer since she was drafting. Her girl died (she was in front) and boy lived who was right behind the drivers seat. He head was taken off and fell on his lap. I was 9/10 and have feared drafting riggs ever since (35now).

Safe drafting in the future?

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/01/volvo-says-road-trains-will-be-used-in-europe-by-2020/?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=pulsenews

The scariest car crash ever caught on video (http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=303457#post303457)

An automated road train system would still not be able to account for events like this. :eek:

Unless the professional driver leading the train did not drive over two by fours?