New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SHM).

Discussion in 'Toyota Prius Family' started by Dan, Sep 3, 2007.

  1. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Update: Jump to post [post="171831"]#163[/post] for some new revelations....

    If your not following [thread="5984"]Wayne's Prius II thread[/thread], we found an interesting spot on the efficiency curve for the Prius II. There seems to be a sweet spot right before the injectors cut out on the way to Warp Stealth. The elusive part is that it looks like it's BELOW the loafing zone for highway driving. Basically it's another "drive-to-a-number" technique, but instead of driving to RPM, you drive to IGN.

    Google told me that Ignition Advance (IGN) has to do with when in the power stroke to spark the fuel. The ECU will slide this number around as you vary the power demand on the engine. Low numbers are better than high numbers. Anyway, for the Prius, the ECU seems to hang out on an IGN of 14 whenever it's feeling really efficient. What RPM and advance of 14 yields varies widely based on speed, which explains some of the odd numbers that jump out on HW segments. What I've seen is that IGN 14 can happen at 1600 RPM in the city and 1200 RPM for the highway.

    Here's a clip from Wayne's Prius Thread about SH mode.

    EDIT: Added IGN: -10
    I was using my highway segment as a learning session this weekend, so I only spent about 30 miles on SH mode but the numbers looked good. Came out to about 67 mpg for SH. Basically my driving strategy for SH mode was to hold IGN 14 as long as possible. It seemed that on flats, you can ALMOST maintain speed at this state. Might be a fun mode to try on a distance draft or with a strong tailwind. For the terrain and weather (gobs of rain) I was in, speed would slowly bleed off. So I was using SH as my glide state in a highspeed P&G technique. I'd pulse up to 90 kph (56 mph) at my usual 1600 RPM range. This consistently translated to an IGN value of 18, if you want to go off that (which I would recommend). Once at 90 kph I'd come off the throttle and watch the IGN numbers drop till I was at exactly 14. I'd hold this for MILES until I was down to 80 kph (50 mph), then I'd pulse up again.

    Now for some more odd stuff. I'm not sure which OBD-II request SGII is sending down to get IGN, but it would stand to reason that it was requesting "Timing Advance". Problem is, that the Prius reports that it doesn't support this PID. So I'd expect to get a value of -64, but the values it sends back seem valid. Another point of interest is rounding. OBD-II reports timing advance (IGN?) in half degrees. So the scale may look like {12.0, 12.5, 13.0, 13.5, 14.0, 14.5, 15.0, 15.5}. So if you notice that sometimes 14 is better than other times, you may be dancing between 13.5 and 14 and not know it. The new XGAUGE feature should fix this.

    Another odd thing is that a low IGN is supposed to be BAD. According to the SGII manual. It's possible that this is simply the result of being on an Atkinson/Miller (Prius) cycle engine instead of an Otto cycle engine.

    This stuff is still in very early beta right now, and there haven't been enough confirmations but Wayne and I have both seen rather consistently that IGN 14 on the highway holds FE over 70 mpg for as long as you can hold it. If you can hold IGN 13, go for it. You should see triple digit FE. I don't think 12 is possible, and going for it will likely transition you to a WS glide (IGN 5).

    Anyway, next time your driving around, look at what happens (city and highway) when you hit IGN 14.

    Please let us know on this thread if you can confirm good HW segments in SH mode.

    11011011
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2008
  2. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    How consistent is that 1200RPM sweet spot on the highway? If you think I can pretty much hit it by watching the tach then I'll give it a shot this week. Or should I concentrate more on MPG=MPHx1.5? I do 40mi/day at 55-60mph so this is exactly the kind of thing that interests me.
     
  3. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    Replace RPM on your SGII with IGN. Watch IGN and try to keep it at 14. IGN is on page 8 of the ScanGauge Manual. If you just watch RPM or MPG you can't hold it, but if you just watch IGN you should be able to hold it for the majority of your highway miles.

    It seems a little underpowered to keep your speed consistent so you will loose 1 mph about every minute or so, depending on terrain.

    The key is to change your gauge display to display IGN.

    11011011
     
  4. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    OK. The thing is I haven't been using the SG at all recently but maybe I'll put it on the dash again to give this a shot.
     
  5. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    If your using CanView it has Ignition Timing (AKA Ignition Advance; AKA Timing Advance).

    11011011
     
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    Hi Tim:

    ___My baton has been passed to you knowing you have that god awful higher speed highway run. Just setup IGN as one of the 4 displays and camp it at 14 once you have reached a high 6-bar state. I will be very interested in reading your take on it given the amount of highway miles you have to run every day? The higher speed comments will be very interesting reading for many of us here?

    ___Dan, IGN14 is a “Kick @$$ Ride”, isn’t it :D

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  7. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    For clarification, where does this additional step come in (quoted from the other thread):

     
  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Hi Jim:

    ___While driving to IGN14, when you reach 6 bars, there will be an initial area where 70 + is not available. 60 + is but not 70. This has to be a lower 6-bar SoC state but I am guessing on this? After a minute or two more of highway charging, the high 6-bar state arrives and that 70 + SHM is available afterwards.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  9. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH)

    IGN is as a ScanGauge gauge. Just like LOD. Personally I've selected my 4 gauges as RPM, IGN, MPG, WT.

    Once you have that on, try to keep IGN between 13-15 whenever the ICE is on. The one time you can "permit" yourself to take IGN above 16 is when you need to get to speed or recover lost speed (from a long IGN14 glide) on the highway.

    11011011
     
  10. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Found another IGN indicator. IGN -10 is when your in the mandatory S1 ICE on mode. The cool part is you can now find out when the EV button is "enabled" after the 60 second S1 run. As soon as IGN goes positive, EV is enabled.

    11011011
     
  11. locutus

    locutus MPG Centurion

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    You guys rock! I want to take mine out on the highway now, but sadly it would still hurt my current tank even if I could hit the 70+. ;) Re: the above, I have (up until now) done this by "S1-limping" up to 12MPH or so, watching the MFD report instantaneous 11, 13, 15... 17... then the sound of the engine changes, MFD flicks up to 25 or so, and S1 is complete (=EV enabled). 'Grats on finding a hard indicator of this.
     
  12. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    This much makes sense, but the implication here is that it arrives spontaneously, whereas your other post suggested it has to be provoked with a slight feathering of the pedal. Can you clarify?
     
  13. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    It appears to be self regulating. Just park it at IGN14 and hold it till your going to slow, then pop up to IGN18 for speed, then go back to IGN14. Once you have enough SoC IGN14 will give enough power to give you almost zero deceleration at highway speeds.

    Another fun thing is to try IGN14 in the city. This is a 1300-1600 RPM pulse, but it moves around a lot so you gotta chase it. Point is, that I think IGN14 is what we've been chasing forever now. It explains the 1600 RPM efficiency I was seeing earlier and it explains the low RPM efficiency Wayne was seeing.

    I consider IGN15 a less aggressive form of IGN14 and IGN13 a more aggressive form of IGN14. Wayne seems to be shooting for IGN13 a lot, I'm usually happy with IGN15 or below.

    11011011
     
  14. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    I am definitely going to be choosing IGN as one of my SGII gauges from now on. I think I'll go do that right now so I don't forget in the morning.
     
  15. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    OK guys. Got another 67 HW segment using SHM. I was doing a pulse and glide with my pulse at IGN18 and my glide at IGN14. I only tried SHM for the last half of the trip. There were heavy rain shows and really torn up roads for the first half, so I just set CC and watched IGN dance. What I saw made since, after I thought about it. When I read up a bit on ignition timing, I think that IGN may be the control that changes RPM. So when you accellerate the followinging happens (I think)
    1. You decide you want to go faster
    2. You increase pressure on the gas pedal
    3. The ECU sees the change in throttle position and increases IGN.
    4. The change in Ignition timing causes more power on the power stroke.
    5. The increased power drives the cam harder (and faster)
    6. The increase in power translates to elevated RPM
    I'm sure there are a million other things that happen, not the least of which would be the valve timing which I'm totally blind to. But what I did notice on cruise is that RPM followed IGN. IGN always changed one refresh before RPM or at the same time. As a result it's a lot easier to chase IGN on SGII than it is to chase RPM. Primarily because of the lag inherent in SGII. Tapping the actual TACH would give you near realtime numbers, but I still suspect that IGN changes first (if only by milliseconds). I suspect that IGN swing around a lot will cause a lot of inefficiencies. I've even noticed HSD throwing in some power to keep from (possibly) changing IGN. But since I'm lacking any real education in ICE internals, this is all just supposition.

    Just watch IGN to RPM and see what happens for you.

    11011011
     
  16. basjoos

    basjoos Well-Known Member

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Sounds like a good reason to install some drag reduction mods on your Prius. If you could cut your aero drag load down to where you could maintain speed in IGN14 without benefit of tailwind or drafting, you'd have it made.
     
  17. mparrish

    mparrish Rosie the Riveter Redux

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Dan & Wayne, what a great thread, and awesome work on the highway technique. IGN as my "stage 1 done" indicator will replace my other crappy methods:

    (1) watch for an iMPG "bump" which varies upon terrain
    (2) listen to the ICE
    (3) continually attempt to EV switch and get repeated & annoying 3 beeps which prompts the wife to say "what the heck is that, one of your new toys?" ;)
    (3) or, old reliable........feather accel, whoops assist, back off, feather accel, whoops assist, back off, feather accel, good to go! :)

    As luck would have it, I read this thread over the weekend while on vacation in South Padre Island, TX. Then, while the wife was getting her birthday massage on the beach, I took the kiddo out to the absolute perfect training track...........a two lane, completely flat highway on the island north of all development, free of all people/cars, and paralleling the ocean. Wow. With a solid six bars, I held IGN14 at ~70mpg for a solid distance. It's amazing how instrumentation can help you stick what you probably crossed over many times before.

    Dan - I'm coming your way! I'll be at La Salsa for the H3C meeting at noon this Saturday. Looking forward to meeting you, and the other interested Houstonians who show up. The 150 mile trip has a nice downhill elevation on the way, so we'll see what "18&14" will yield me when I pull up.

    I'll reply in the H3C thread.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2007
  18. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Inspired by the two threads going on about this, I hooked up
    the Autoenginuity and went out for a bit of data-collection
    this afternoon. First of all, here's my data -- *all* of it:
    -> http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/sweet/loafing.csv
    for anyone's statistical pleasure. I collected spark advance,
    RPM, engine torque [which I believe is calculated by the hybrid
    ECU from motor torque, but who knows], injector time, and speed.
    The file has a label line at the top. I didn't include LOD
    because I know that my non-upgraded ECU reports it bizarrely
    and I can more or less see it via my vacuum gauge and/or the
    torque figure. Then I went back and re-read both threads
    in parallel with composing this just to make sure I had the
    whole picture. What else to do on a nice sunny Labor Day
    afternoon? I already got my labor in, smoothing down and
    painting six big cinderblocks for use as tent weights.
    .
    First of all, you guys have been averaging about 50 mph for
    this experiment, right? As xcel points out, that's hard to
    do on most of our interstates without a good excuse; today
    I managed to poke along mostly at less than 55 but with all
    the returning Labor Day beach traffic and big-ass pickups
    and boat trailers tailgating everyone in sight and diving
    on and off the ramps, that wasn't easy. But my usual "test
    track", I-95 on the north-shore section, has 4 and sometimes
    5 lanes, so it's a little more reasonable there. Still, at
    60-ish people tend to just pass, but down closer to 50 there's
    definitely a lot more stink-eye goin' on.
    .
    So on a relatively fresh tank I tried both techniques for a
    while; about 25 miles of 14-advance and then another longish
    leg back to my usual minimum-1700-RPM and WS routine. I
    oscillated between maybe 48 mph and 60 mph; possibly a little
    faster than others' experiments. After the 14-degree time
    I was sitting at 66.5 mpg average. After the pulse-n-WS
    routine I was seeing 66.4. This wasn't a totally controlled
    terrain -- I made a big loop on the local highways, rather
    than trying a rigorous A/B two-round-trips test. I figured
    if there was going to be any significant difference, I'd
    see it simply by eyeballing the 5-minute bars and watching
    the average drift. What I really wanted to determine was
    the conditions that y'all have been talking about WRT this
    s'posedly new technique. Besides the .CSV data, I did note
    a couple of other things.
    .
    The 14-deg mode appears to be able to hold about 47 mph
    sustained on the flat. Not useful for interstates by itself,
    but obviously allows for a longer glide-down. That's
    probably just the balance of output power vs. air resistance.
    Spark timing seems to advance farther while engine RPM is
    increasing, and retard a little on spool-down. Idle is 10
    deg as Dan noted. What's rather puzzling is a> why there's
    a dip in ignition timing like that around that certain
    RPM/torque range -- backing off even farther sends it more
    *advanced* again until you actually hit idle, and b> why
    retarding the ignition at all would have any hope of being
    efficient. Perhaps at very light loads, there's so little
    mixture in there that it's not worth lighting it off earlier
    since it's done burning before the power stroke is finished?
    .
    There is a little operational plateau in there with respect
    to accel position. In that state I usually saw 14.5 degrees,
    the iFCD hovering just under 100 MPG, 8 in-Hg of vacuum, and
    4.4 or thereabouts ms injector time. So without the laptop,
    my indicators of that state are the vac at 8 and the iFCD just
    shy of 100 [sans scangauge, I can back off slowly and guess
    when it just went off the top]. [Note that injector time is
    usually 6 - 7 ms under most pulse conditions, and about 1.2
    ms at idle.] The plateau shows up when wiggling my foot a
    little through the 14-deg range -- the vacuum and RPM don't
    increase or decrease. What does change just a little is
    battery current. At lower demand I see about 5 amps of
    charge, and at higher demand [just before vac starts to drop
    and spark-timing changes] it goes back to 0. If I'm at 60%
    SoC already the time that that 5 amps of "background charge"
    happens is fairly short, and then the plateau more or less
    disappears. That's when battery current [and the mimic] start
    bobbling back and forth. If I've held the state long enough
    for this to happen, chances are I'm down under 50 mph by then
    and it's high time to pulse again. For what it's worth I
    rarely saw 13 degrees, and if I did it was almost impossible
    to maintain even if my foot was frozen. Must have showed up
    briefly on transitions.
    .
    This is in keeping with how the Prius does a lot of its
    engine management -- certain torque ranges are maintained
    under varying demand, simply by shunting a little more
    engine output to battery-charging instead of between the
    MGs when needed. We see this pretty often at low speed,
    too, when SoC is under 60%. If I backed off *too* far in
    14-degree mode, the whole system just fell right into WS
    by itself. So obviously this is how the Prius handles the
    next demand region just above that.
    .
    So I can't see much MPG difference so far between this and
    what I've been doing, but I've got the possible advantage
    of being able to manage my WS a little more closely using
    the battery-current meter and actually keep it close to
    zero for long ones or use a little bit of 'lectric to sustain
    speed without re-lighting until I need to. My 5-minute bars
    wandered around somewhere between the 50 and 75 lines pretty
    much the whole time, without any profound differences stemming
    from either glide-mode. What still baffles me is how xcel is
    pulling 80 MPG segments out of this where everyone else seems
    to be working hard for 70. We're not worthy. No, the
    aforementioned cinderblocks were *not* in the car.
    .
    I will note that holding the iMPG somewhere north of 75 was one
    of the techniques I was trying two years ago. It was likely
    similar to what's going on here. I couldn't see any profound
    differences there either; of course I was doing a lot of that
    in winter weather, so nothing was likely to hand me 70 mpg
    highway runnin' for free. Bottom line that we've all known is
    that the Prius ICE is pretty efficient in general, and the air
    resistance curve is a bitch. We also know that trying to truly
    steady-state at 55 - 60 mph is likely to see an efficiency drop.
    .
    But what I'm looking for is a higher "crossover point". If
    I'm actually trying to get somewhere, it's nice to put a mile
    a minute under the wheels and get the occasional thumbs-up from
    a passing SUV instead of fists and fingers from all of them.
    .
    Side note -- my usual "S1 done" indicator is the change in
    engine/exhaust note, which is pretty obvious and should
    happen about a minute after startup anyways. I also see
    propulsion begin to come from the engine instead of just
    the battery, which has been causing me to try to take it
    really easy on the go-pedal during that first minute to
    avoid pulling the pack way down. 10-amp crawl out of my
    road, and then pulse/EVB until it's warm enough for S4.
    .
    _H*
     
  19. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Which is one reason I'm trying to pin down whether he is inducing it by some simple but very subtle pedal magic.

    From the other thread ...

    ... an update: So two measuring devices (Autoenginuity and ScanGauge) are in agreement on IGN reporting, whereas Can-View is not. I might pass this on to Norm (the CV guy), though a lot of what CV reports is based on CAN decoding done by Atilla Vass. Maybe it's just a simple arithmetic adjustment within CV.

    Working on that assumption for the moment, I watched ignition timing on my morning commute today. Top speeds were only in the low 40s, but when I held IGN28 reasonably steady on the flat I was seeing RPM in the 1200-1300 range as reported by Dan and others, and iMPG at least in the 60s. Too short and too slow, though, for any conclusions yet about the SG/CV IGN relationship, but it looks like that might be in the ballpark.

    CV reports injector time, so I'll set that up as another display parameter. EDIT: Just discovered that it's not available on the same screen as ignition timing, so I can't watch the two simultaneously. :(
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2007
  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Re: New Prius - "Super Highway Mode" Technique (SH).

    Hi Dan:

    ___I saw IGN10 under a no arrow WS glide between maybe 52 and 43 mph on the way down yesterday morning if that helps add to your list?

    ___Personally, I do not think WS will beat the SHM in my experience given the way the Prius-II acts at a high SoC and while at these ridiculously low RPM’s. When or if I accelerate back up, I never come anywhere near IGN 18 unless needed for an emergency. I stuck to the IGN 13 – 16 and never pulled anything from the MGSet mimic as I instantly lose 1 – 3 mpg from a std. pulse no matter the rate at the time when running that hard an accel. I simply never pull from the MGSet for propulsion other then when in pure EV, EVER! I also tried not to P&G the SHM but maintain a relatively steady state – slower speed pace so as to let the 5-minute bars build and hold in the 72 – 73 mpg range while pulling full highway runs. SHM can be beat in some instances with active management using the iFCD, tach and mimic for some period but the 5-minute bars are not nearly so steady when pushing in that manner the way I am used too nor can the average guy or gal pull this off like half of us here do.

    ___Basjoos, the Prius is already pretty darn slick with a Cd of 0.26. The HP numbers needed at 50 mph with that low a Cd are miniscule so aero-modding would help only at higher speeds where SHM “may not” be as productive?

    ___Al and Jim, I cannot hold nor maintain 80 mpg w/ SHM. All the other techniques are needed including a healthy dose of warm up P&G before hitting the Interstate to put together a decent final result. From there, SHM slowly bleeds me until I find one of my favorite WS to Glide transition points along my route and take it down before a std. pulse back up to 50 +. This adds a few tenths only to let SHM bleed me down again until the next spot or traffic jam to really punch up a great 5-minute bar or two and so on and so forth. When I am speaking of bleeding, remember this is in the 80 + mpg segment territory that I am currently running or actively seeking. A 72 – 73 mpg, 5-minute bar just slowly bleeds you is all. Not like a 50 or 60 mpg one which kills me and yes, I have seen those early on with both the Prius-I and II :(

    ___What SHM offers everyone is a way to drive the Prius to high highway FE without having to actively manage more then one or two variables. They see IGN14 and they hold. It rises; they back off until they lock it in again. It just makes it easier for the average Jane and Joe to finally grab some decent highway numbers out of the Prius-I and II without resorting to the stuff we all have to do to pull the equivalent is all. It is pretty neat to see the Prius-II as large and heavy as it is cruising down the highway with the tach between 1180 and 1280 and while punching out the kinds of numbers most would die for :D

    ___Finally, there is something else about SHM that I never saw before. The SG-II is over-reporting FE per the iFCD parameter vs. the Prius’ iFCD in real time and usually they are in lockstep or the SG-II is underreporting (WS and even steady state type numbers) just a touch! This was very unusual activity to see the SG-II over-report vs. the OEM FCD in real time while watching both for their tell-tale signs. It was almost like the Prius-II went lean like a lean-burner at IGN14 and the SG-II did not know how to account for it other then think it was a regular instantaneous reading? The FCD was not 4 over actual like the first short and second full tank but under-reporting to top off. I think there are some more secrets buried in this IGN14 yet to be discovered.

    ___Here are a few pics (2 or 3 will go up in the Prius-II review I will be putting up someday) showing SHM in action. The following 4 pics were taken within 2 + minutes of one another and are in a time sequential upload from two nights ago during my last night into work with the Prius-II. The first pic was taken at 09:23 PM, the second at 09:24 PM, the third at 09:25 PM and the fourth at 09:25 PM.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    ___Holding onto 80 – 85 mpg on the highway is all but impossible but she bounces around between 65 and 90 during SHM a lot and I for one will take it. I have never seen a Prius-II driver come close to 70 with a mostly highway commute and SHM can possibly allow it if you can remove the warm-up hit with an EBH and plenty of P&G before hitting the interstate.

    [​IMG]
    Final short tank segment after 110 miles on Monday morning.​

    ___Jerad and Marc, although SHM benefits all Prius drivers out on the highway, it will come nowhere near what your std. P&G offers in heavy traffic, city streets or out in the country. She just doesn’t offer that much on the highway so please do not go burn a half gallon just to see it while you guys are nursing 1K tanks. Wait for the chance when you have to drive the highway and then it will show you what a Prius-II can do without resorting to the usual counteracting of every move of the iFCD. What may be helpful however is while watching the IGN parameter during that last night and last morning yesterday before Cheryl took her back, I saw my std. Pulses lineup with IGN14 almost exactly during a P&G routine with my new found love for 5 or 6-bars of SoC. The following is just to show you what circling O’Hare on Monday morning during the Labor Day Holiday weekend with crazy traffic all-around will allow while running a std. IGN14 pulse but with short pulse durations to conform with 0 - 30 again and again and again.

    [​IMG]

    ___P&G still kicks everyone’s @$$ in real traffic no matter what they are driving other then a PHEV/BEV including the 10 best Insight pilots on the planet so make sure you guys are willing to lose some just to see this new technique and parameter including what it can and cannot offer to you at highway speeds is all. When I look back at the Prius-I review and the Prius-II this past week, getting both into this high SoC range and nursing it for all its worth must place them in IGN14 without having known this parameter locks it down afterwards. There are too many similarities in FE and activity of the SoC, iFCD and aFCD’s in both over their 70 + % highway segments and tanks for it not to have been accounted for with a healthy dose IGN14 leading the way.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2007

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