2020 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Leapfrogs the Competition

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    A digression, but I don't know where else to put it.

    Edit: Off topic info has been moved to here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    Create a new thread and post those excellent details!!! How much for the Grid tied inverter? Install? Panels? Whose panels? Your systems output could power my home in its entirety with a grid time for night time use of course. We use on average ~ 400 kWh/month other than the recent cold snap which means running the furnace fan and of course charging the Niro EV with ~ 50 kWh in total last month at $0.33/kWh.

    Your systems output must be great for charging your 2017 Toyota Prius Prime!!! If only Hyundai was considering a 40+ mile range 2020 Sonata PHEV. ;)

    Wayne
     
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  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The Chicago Auto Show Hyundai Press Conference. I was in the front row on the far left outside of camera view when I posted the details at 09:30 AM CST on Feb. 6, 2020. Unfortunately this reveals YouTube video was cut short by the Chicago Auto Show officials to just the reveal itself and not the details.

    2020 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Reveal


    What I did not see was the availability of Smart Park on the Sonata Hybrid trims like that available on the 2020 Sonata. I loved the advert on Super Bowl Sunday. You will as well. ;)

    2020 Hyundai Sonata Smart Park


    Wayne
     
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    While I was posting the post above, I received a reply wrt a future 2020 Sonata PHEV release. We already know much of the SUV lineup will be receiving HEV and PHEV updates - with this drivetrain, they will be killer! ;) - but no Sonata PHEV.
    Wayne
     
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  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    My FB vid of the intro...


    Wayne
     
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  6. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    According to Hyundai's promotional material on the Ioniq, the DCT is several percentage points more efficient (I can't find the exact chart but it's on this site somewhere.) Point is, if it is any more efficient, why not use it?

    Were those hybrids? Again, a P2-style hybrid effectively uses the electric motor as a torque converter. Most of the criticisms of DCT have to do with low-speed or start/stop operation with a conventional ICE without a torque converter. A DCT is the ideal transmission for a P2-style hybrid.
     
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  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jay:

    As of now, only Hyundai has taken the chance with (dry clutch) DCTs in both the Eco trim Sonata and Elantra, turbo Veloster, and now turbo'ed Kona along with the Ioniq HEV and PHEV. Ford and VW dropped out. I was initially a fan thanks to its super fast shifts and high efficiency but no longer. There is no way to replace the clutch packs but instead a $6k replacement is Hyundai's fix of choice. They are indeed efficient as they are automated manuals and the "dry" means little to no slippage. How they are going to work out in the Ioniq's long term is a question mark for me. If I had a choice, I would choose Toyota's HSD over the Ioniq's DCT as I know many Prius' that have gone well beyond 500k miles with no issues. The Elantra DCT started acting up at 60k miles. By 150k miles even with all the "real time fixes" I threw at it, it was coming close to its EOL.

    There is a reason Hyundai moved to the CVT in the Venue and Elantra and moved to a std. 6-speed AT in the Kona SE/SEL while the 2020 Sonata received a new 8-speed AT and the 2020 Sonata Hybrid uses the same 6-speed that has been modified with ASC. None went to the much more efficient DCT and I suspect we all know the reasons why.

    Wayne
     
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  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Maybe then it will be okay for me to get an Ioniq PHEV.
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Edwin:

    If you can find one. :(

    Wayne
     
  10. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Wayne, the "problem" vehicles you mention all use the DCT clutches to perform torque multiplication for start-from-stop/low-speed duty in conventional ICE transmissions and this is their inherent weak point. In contrast, a P2-style hybrid with DCT does not use the clutches for torque multiplication. A smooth, high-torque electric motor always always always gets the vehicle underway and operates at low speeds. The clutches perform switching duty only. Again, a DCT is an ideal transmission for a P2 -style hybrid. I like the P2-style hybrid over Toyota and Ford's power-split hybrids. The P2 hybrid is less expensive to manufacture and outperforms the power-split at higher speeds. Since up-front costs are the main drawback to hybrid transmissions, P2-style is the winner. The power-split hybrid is more efficient at low speeds, though.

    I've driven my sister's 2016 Sonata hybrid numerous times. In the summer, on the road, my fuel economy is so good I hesitate to tell anyone my gas mileage because I don't like to be called a liar. Completely different story in the winter, though. In the winter, the driver must choose between cabin heat and fuel economy because the engine has to run all the time to support cabin heat. If the driver chooses cabin heat, the hybrid advantage of shutting the engine off at low loads goes completely out the window. It's actually worse than that. The lithium-ion batteries have really high self-discharge characteristics at low temps. Drive that hybrid Sonata across town in the morning in sub-zero temps and then park outside all day while you work and the traction battery will almost completely self-discharge just sitting there. Since it takes gasoline to charge that battery, it's like a leaking fuel tank. The fuel economy of a hybrid Sonata suffers so badly in SE Idaho winters that I think a non-hybrid would perform better.

    tl;dr: A hybrid is suitable for some environments and unsuitable in others. Most favorable environment is for the commuter making his way out of downtown LA to Thousand Oaks in heavy stop-and-crawl traffic in mild climate. Most unfavorable environment is very cold temperature, short trip driving.
     
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  11. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    distance relative to 60610 (random Chicago area zip code)

    Screenshot_20200208-120228~2.jpg
     
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  12. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Hmmm, a possible benefit to the solar panel on the new Sonata Hybrid. :)
     
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  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Edwin and Bill:

    With the Ioniq PHEVs pricing sky high and more than likely no Fed TC available on the used one, there is another with proven transmission reliability. It is a mess wrt the infotainment and driver ergonomics vs the Ioniq HEV/PHEV however. :(

    2020 Toyota Prius Prime

    [​IMG]
    Between $16,750 and $18,000 + TTL w/ the MA $3,500 Toyota Rebate (incl in the disc.), $2,800 dealer disc.,
    and if you qualify for the $4502 Fed TC, $1k CA State tax Rebate, $750 Uber driver disc.​

    Jay, the Ioniq DCT does not use the Sonata Hybrid's std. AT. They also both use every gear even with the motor to launch when the ICE is running at low speeds. Far more often than I would wish. It was not just 1st and 2nd gear issues but at the ~ 140k mile mark, I began feeling micro slips at speeds above 50 mph in 7th gear with the Elantra Eco's DCT.

    Wayne
     
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  14. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    I agree. That aspect caught my eye, too. There may be negotiating room based on that fact, but I doubt it. Greed is prevalent and not illegal so buyer beware.
     
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  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hybrids have been 'mainstream' available for 20+ years.
    Plug ins (EV and PHEV) for about 10 years.

    So for the last 10 or 20 years anything with a battery -- and especially with a plug and battery -- has been expensive. Should we expect that to change this year?
     
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  16. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Maybe for you , but my infotainment needs are not the same as yours. Ergonomics , not sure. But you're considerably taller than me.
    The Prime is almost a no-brainer. When I retire ( 1-2 years ) , I won't need to drive very often or far.
    I can charge it once a week to run to the grocery store and health club , and fire up the ICE for a 20 -30 mile drive every Sunday.
     
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