VW: 'Carbon Neutral', It's the Only Way Forward

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hi Wayne, A couple of things I would become familiar with before getting too deep into home solar:

    1. UL 1741
    2. "As of October 2019, the Tesla Powerwall 2 costs $14,600 for the recommended two units (plus $2,500 to $4,500 for installation) in the US; this price does not include the cost of solar panels."

    / 1. Rooftop solar -- not looking too good these days. Sounds like the power companies would just rather you didn't ...
    "They" have rules in place (UL 1741), .. turning the table on grid tie home solar.
    Old way -- individual uses the grid as a battery to back up their home solar.
    New way -- power company turns your home solar down to almost no output, only to use it as a 'peaker plant' under high grid demand. (or just discourage you from installing it in the first place)
    / 2.
    Return on investment calculations

    It's hard to know what to believe ... isn't it?
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    xcel likes this.
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    The G Tron is reported to get roughly the same efficiency on CNG as when using gasoline, so 25 miles will cost $1.33. Using the national average of $2.11/gge, it is $1.76.
    A Model 3 LR using Superchargers will be $2.03 at that rate. I don't have a Tesla to access the app in order to find station specific rates, but past info for Oklahoma had it at 0.15/kWh. The Supercharger price increase was around 29%. At 0.20/kWh, the Tesla costs $1.45.
    Charging at home, where the majority is done, will cost 94 cents.
    xcel likes this.
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    A $16k investment, 30 year warranty, and a monthly bill that fell from an average of $250 to $10 for a friend of mine here in Carlsbad incl. charging his Model 3.

    The ROI looks pretty darn good in his case regardless of the power consumed and when.

    If you were in his shoes, you would do the same.

    In our case, not so much as our monthly is around $65 with heavy shade trees. It would never pay off so no electric car for me.

    Do you remember the Honda CNG refueling systems? Honda discontinued those after a few years as there were few takers of the cars, even fewer of the systems, and high liability.

    NeilBlanchard likes this.
  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    It's 0.28/kWh to supercharge. I already told you. It's about $1.60/gge in Oklahoma. I already told you.
    Why do you pull (wrong) numbers, just to argue?
  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Yeah, it sounds like it might be worthwhile. But the devil is in the details. Did you read through the evtv link I gave you? Are they (the power companies) now tapering your friend's solar? What was a good looking deal a year or two ago might not be now or in a year or two when the power companies start turning down the rooftop solar output through UL 1741 controls.
    xcel likes this.
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    It is the deal he received and it will continue into the future.

  7. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I thought the Honda CNG home refueling device was pretty cool. It's really the only way to make a CNG car work.
    Or , you could buy a CNG car and wait until they built the infra structure ( in Illinois , maybe the next century).
    xcel likes this.
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    "Average pricing information is provided below and specific pricing for each Supercharger location is shown in the navigation application on the vehicle touchscreen."
    - https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging

    The 28 cents is a national average for Superchargering. For a like comparison, I used the $2.10/gge average for CNG.

    This site's prices are from before the increase, https://teslanomics.co/tesla-supercharger-rate-calculator/
    Note that Oklahoma is on the low end of the Supercharger scale, and this likely hasn't changed as their electric rates are still some of the lowest in the nation. Back then, tier 2 pricing was at 20 cents, it might be up to 26 cents now. So the Supercharger cost is likely higher than what I posted, but then the home charging price will be lower as I used 13 cents/kWh, and Oklahoma is 10 to 11 cents.
    Honda stopped supporting them near the end, and wouldn't cover the fuel system under warranty if one was used. The home fill systems didn't adequately clean and dry the natural gas, and fuel lines on the car could rot out.

    Even without that issue, the systems cost hundreds more than a Level 2 charger before the annual maintenance is factored in.
    xcel likes this.
  9. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member


    So, .. likely he was up and running and grandfathered in by July 31 2017??
    That may last for what, .. another 5 years? I see Alameda power had something about 20 years. But none of the grandfatherings is going to help anyone thinking about installilng solar today.

    Another term worth knowing is "duck curve". ..


    /just trying to keep it real, .. that's all
    xcel likes this.
  10. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    and thousands less than the battery in a 200+mile BEV.
    xcel likes this.
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Which will go to replacing the fuel system and refueler maintenance.;)

    Though CNG cars aren't cheap. The A4 starts at $42k; a CNG bi-fuel system will add to that. The Impala bi-fuel was over $38k. The Civic CNG was $2000 more than the hybrid of the time, and had a range of 165 miles. A modern CNG car using an engine designed for natural gas will have better range with better packaging, but it will have a price increase over a gasoline car.

    Then there are 3.75 times more E85 stations than CNG ones in the US. There are more Supercharger stations with more better coverage. Now putting in CNG stations is much easier than hydrogen.

    Natural gas burns cleaner than gasoline and diesel, and making renewable isn't difficult. So I think it can play a part in transportation fueling. It could work for cars, but other alternates are much further along.
    xcel likes this.
  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:


    VW has collaborated with the Petersen Automotive Museum on a new exhibit that will showcase the design and construction of the vehicles of tomorrow. Set to open to the public on Wednesday, November 20, 2019, “Building an Electric Future” will celebrate VW’s rich and impactful history both globally and locally, as well as introduce VW’s new electric concept vehicles. This exhibit will emphasize the brand's plans to become the foremost producer of BEVs, beginning with the global concept unveiling of an all-new ID. concept vehicle at a private event on Tuesday, November 19, 2019.

    The exhibit will consist of five rooms showcasing how VW’s modular electric drive matrix, or MEB platform, was engineered, the variety of models that will be built, the uniquely flexible nature of the platform and how the vehicles will be assembled. Through the incorporation of interactive features in each room, visitors will have a variety of engaging ways to visualize new challenges faced by modern automakers and explore what driving will look like in the future. The final room of the exhibit will give visitors an inside look at an ID. concept vehicle and focus on the interior and technology features. Supporting video assets will highlight how this vehicle will augment the future driving experience.

    The four planned ID. concept vehicles will be highlighted through both physical and virtual interactive experiences. Visitors will be able to immerse themselves in the assembly process and see the car take shape around them through virtual reality. They will also have the opportunity to physically explore the finished product — a completed vehicle that will remain unlocked and accessible throughout the run of the exhibit.

    “Building an Electric Future” will be the feature installation under the “Driving Toward Tomorrow” series of exhibits at the Petersen. The series will address the automobile industry’s current work on the future of transportation design and display actual concept vehicles being developed by a global selection of automobile manufacturers.

  13. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Apparently, Hyundai has now reduced pack voltage and reduced quick charging speed (2020 Ioniq EV).

    So that is 3 OEMs that are now trending away from fast charging (Nissan, Tesla, Hyundai). -- most likely due to battery safety and/or longevity concerns

    If VW is really jumping in with both feet into today's battery technology, ... it will be interesting to compare quick charging speeds -- at time of sale or perhaps later with mandated BMS updates.
    xcel likes this.
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    The new Leaf Plus accepts a higher rate than the smaller battery model. Though the air cooling means wider range of charge times depending on battery and ambient temperatures.

    The new Ioniq Electric had its battery capacity increased by over 10kWh. It accepts the same max rate as the previous model, it just takes longer because of the bigger battery. Also air cooled though.

    Tesla just bumped up the rate for the Model 3 Standard range + to bring it in line with the long range model's C-rate. The charge rate and range was decreased on some older Model S's, though some owners didn't see a change.
    xcel likes this.
  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Bjorn Nyland says: (6:45/8:48 (embarrassingly slow) youtube:
    Hyundai Ioniq 38 kWh fast charging)

    1000km (621 mi) challenge:

    - "old" 28 kwh ioniq -- 12 hours
    - new 38 kwh ioniq -- he predicts 14 ish hours
    - 62 kwh Leaf -- 15 .5 hours

    In a gas car I can do that distance in under 10 hours.

    In a big battery Tesla? --- could be anywhere from 12.5 hours to 16+ hours (or longer?, ... some owners are now reporting their cars are unusable for road trips) would be my guess -- depends on which software update Tesla has assigned to you

    /and, of course, "peak" or "max" rate means nothing when trying to determine how long it takes to charge the battery. It's just a sales pitch term -- a mostly useless "tech spec".
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    xcel likes this.
  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So no. It takes longer because the charging rate has been reduced (vs. previous ioniq). And the new battery is liquid (not air) cooled.
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I thought that was the case, but a site I came across said otherwise. The Ioniq is reported as getting the same battery as the shorter range Kona EV, so being liquid cooled would make sense. Kind of weird that the battery heater is optional.

    The 64kWh Kona has a larger voltage rating. I'm guessing the smaller one is using the same modules for cost cutting, and the lower voltage is because of that.
    xcel likes this.
  18. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So that's why the 2020 Ioniq EV gets an approx 10% price increase over 2019?
    xcel likes this.
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    The 2020 Ioniq EV details have not yet been officially released yet. I have found numerous pics including details on the Global media site but the specific North American details are not released yet that I can find.

  20. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    And Hyundai has no intention of selling it in Illinois. Grumble.
    xcel likes this.

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