Eighth Gen Golf Revealed in Europe

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] Mild HEV and PHEV variants plus TDIs and TSIs are the highlight.

    Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – October 24, 2019

    2021 VW Golf

    [​IMG]

    VW just introduced the all-new eighth gen Golf with a number of hybrid variants available at launch. Like many of VWs latest offerings, the Golf will arrive with a full digitally generated driver display. Something else… It is the first VW to use “Swarm Intelligence” from traffic via Car2X, meaning it can warn against hazards on an anticipatory basis by communicating with other similar equipped future Golfs, VWs, and Audis going forward. The all-new Golf will be available in the European marketplace in December. No word on when it will be available here yet but I suspect VW will have a great deal to talk about at the LAAS Press Days early next month?

    From the exterior, not much has changed. A Compact hatch with the distinctive Golf’s 45-years of heritage can be seen from a glance. It is inside and under the hood where things get really interesting.

    Inside, the majority of displays and controls are digital with the infotainment systems featuring touch buttons and touch sliders. I am not so sure volume and tuning control without buttons/knobs is such a good thing myself. Remember Honda? A heads-up display (HUD) will be available although I have to say that after 10 years of looking at HUDs from a variety of manufacturers, they are distracting and are not exactly a feature I find to be particularly useful.

    2021 VW Golf Interior

    [​IMG]

    Under the Hood of the all-new Golf

    The all-new eighth gen Golf will be available in five hybrid variants, three 48V mild hybrids with an eTSI moniker and 2 plug-ins.

    From our 48V VW Mild-Hybrid reveal, VWs Near Future Electrified Drivetrain Designs, VW/Continental’s 48V technology enables drives to be electrified more affordably. The 48V system via a belt-integrated starter generator (BSG) enables a considerably higher amount of energy to be saved with lower current than a 12V system while allowing some brake regeneration.

    Like Hyundai’s single motor systems with a BSG but not designed as a full hybrid, VWs starter-generator performs the role of alternator and starter. At the same time, it functions as a small, lightweight electric motor that immediately increases drive torque upon start-up by means of an electric boost. The power of the generator is transferred via a belt. The generator also starts the combustion engine which is switched off as much as possible while the vehicle is moving. Think of it as an electric FAS! The starter generator receives the necessary voltage via the 48V battery and the 12V power supply receives the required voltage via the “DC/DC converter”.
    Seems like a lot of mild work where the full hybrid would have cost just a few hundred dollars more and the benefits of close to 40 percent would have been provided vs the 10 percent touted within the all-new Golf’s reveal.

    In Europe, the all-new Golf will be available with three eTSI drivetrains, a 108 hp, 128 hp, and 148 hp variant.

    I doubt we will see any of these eTSI variants here although that is pure speculation on my part. The eighth generation Golf will also be offered with two different PHEVs in Europe. I suspect we will see at least one of these.

    A new 201 hp efficiency version and a high power 242 hp “GTE” version are both going to be PHEVs with a 13 kWh Li-Ion. I suspect 70 percent of that that traction battery’s capacity will be useable leaving 9 kWh available allowing upwards of 27 miles of all-electric range prior to first use of gasoline.

    If VW uses their already excellent 147 hp and 184 pound-feet of torque turbocharged and direct-injected 1.4L I4 engine with a little more atkinsonization - 120 hp engine output, that could indicate an 80 hp electric motor. Again, pure speculation on my part.

    While the TDI is now an unspoken word here in the U.S., I do wish one were still available, the TSI still lives on in the all-new 8th gen Golf. In Europe, the Golf will be available as an 89 hp and 108 hp I4 TSI under the hood. On the European diesel front, a 113 hp and 148 hp I4 TDI. The TDIs will incorporate 2 SCR Cats to reduce NOx by up to 80% from current TDIs. VW stated the efficiency has climbed another 17% compared with the current TDIs! Bejesus that thing has got to be ridiculously efficient.

    2021 VW Golf

    [​IMG]

    Car2X “Car to Car” communications will be standard thanks to an online connectivity unit (OCU). The standard OCU features an integrated eSIM “We Connect” and “We Connect Plus”. Car2X receives signals from the traffic infrastructure and information from other vehicles up to .5 miles away via a display. The owners Golf shares its telemetry with other Car2X models providing those vehicles information on traffic conditions from the same distance away. It is called “Swarm Intelligence” and is becoming a reality, representing the beginning of a new phase of traffic safety. Today Google exploits similar technology to provide real time traffic and rerouting options to millions of U.S. drivers on a daily basis today. VW will take this technology to a whole new level.
     
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  2. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Beautiful car. I have always liked VWs styling on the golfs. I like mild hybrid systems and I think they are much more cost effective than the full hybrids. Too bad they discontinued their wagon. I really like the Golf Sportwagen version.
     
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  3. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Brake regen is good , IF you use brakes. If you glide a lot , regen is ............meh.

    But yes, the Golf is a sweet-looking car. It's still on my list.
     
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  4. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I'm starting to think that I'd like a Golf wagon in the future, if they decide to continue selling it here. I haven't ever been a fan of belt driven mild hybridization, it feels like the benefits are small and the complexity is high.
     
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  5. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    I think 48V mild hybrids will just become the norm in otherwise ICE cars.
     
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  6. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    I like mild hybrids because of the lower maintenance. You integrate the starter/alternator and put the unit out in front of the engine making it much more accessible for service. Make the new integrated starter/alternator a brushless DC motor and no more starter solenoid that will wear out. No more brushed starter motor that will wear out and be an absolute bear to replace. They are usually buried under the intake manifold. No more brushed alternator which has to be replaced eventually to service the brushes (and bearings). You gain an additional belt that needs replacing every 80kmi or so but the belts are cheap and easy to replace. You get dc/dc downconvertors for the 12V systems, which will become fewer and fewer as the industry moves to 48V standard, but that assy is cheap and easy to design. There's already a metric ton of reliable 48V to 12V converters on the market from the telecom industry. The Li-Ion battery should be lighter and more reliable than the pb-acid (although much more expensive).

    Now you can move the car short distances--like in and out of the garage--without starting the engine. Now you can use that efficient, quick-shifting dual-clutch transmission, that doesn't work so good starting off and moving at very low speeds, because the integrated starter/motor is taking over that duty.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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  7. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    You've put some thought into it, Jay! :) One other factor of unknown but perhaps little significance is the reduction of copper in high-current 12V wires. Thinner wires will suffice for the 48V wires. I like that there's no longer a constant drag on the engine to run the alternator. And if they move to electric AC, that part of the drag can be removed as well, and you'd be able to have AC while the engine's off (for very short periods). Having AC without the engine running has been very useful in the Prime.
     
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  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    The current 48v systems are designed to be bolt on to make it easy to add to current engines and transmissions. Following generations will have the HSG integrated in the drive train, like IMA, as the car companies design the drive train for them.

    It will also allow greater benefits from electric turbos, and lower emissions with preheated catalytic converters.
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    While a number of possible 48V "benefits" occur when it comes to driving the car, we still have to have DC to DC converter, the expensive motor, and large amp carrying harnesses.

    Let us consider the $29,325 (MSRP) 2020 Toyota Camry XLE (27/38/31 mpgUS city/highway/combined) and $32,550 (MSRP) Camry Hybrid XLE (44/47/46 mpgUS city/highway/combined).

    Toyota has their HSD down to a $3,225 and offers 63, 24, and 48 percent higher city/highway/combined ratings respectively. Using the average price of gasoline at $2.50 per gallon and mpgUS combined ratings, over the course of 100k miles, the Camry XLE and Camry Hybrid XLE will consume/cost 3,226 gallons/$8,065 and 2,172/$5,435 respectively for a $2,630 savings. The $3,2525 savings cross over occurs at 124k miles.

    Currently we do not have the 48V systems here in U.S. cars yet. eToruqe in the RAM 1500 truck... Audi A6 Allroad may be first, but let us assume it will have a $1k price tag on every VW/Audi and anybody else that uses a 48V system. I suspect it will be a lot more than this. It should offer a real world city efficiency boost of 10 percent and a highway boost of maybe 2 percent at best? For a quick calculation, let us use the VW statement that the Continental 48V Mild Hybrid will provide a 10 percent increase on the WLTP which is an easier cycle than the U.S. EPA.

    The 2019 VW Golf with the 1.4L TSI achieves a 29/37/32 mpgUS city/highway/combined rating. With a 48V system on board, the EPA combined "MAY" rise to 35 mpg at best. And I am being generous. With a 48V mile hybrid system $1k upcharge, the cost crossover at just $1,000 for a 35 mpg rated vehicle vs the 32 mpg rated one occurs at 149k miles.

    Why not just sell a much more efficient full hybrid system?

    Wayne
     
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  10. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    How would that work in places where every other hill seems to have a stop light or stop sign at the bottom, here for example?

    I agree brake regeration can seem overrated. It's not very clear that, after all the energy conversion losses going both ways, enough brake energy gets back to the driveshaft to justify hauling around the extra mass all the time.
     
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  11. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Having said what I said , regen is still important. There are definitely times I use it , as I do drive in the real world
    in aggressive suburban traffic. Most of my regen comes from having to lift my foot completely off the accelerator ,
    and I do use the brakes below 15-20 MPH.
     
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  12. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Super Moderator

    My car already has swarm intelligence, it's called Waze.
     
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  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Thunderstruck:

    VWs Car2X is a little more specific than Google and Waze. I was at a Ford safety junket about 10 years ago. With two vehicles communicating with one another - front and third, in a three vehicle procession, if something happened with the first where it had to stop unexpectedly, the third was warned immediately with both autonomous braking and/or a warning display similar to a Forward Collision Warning.

    The car to car communication was technologically far ahead of anything that Google provides to us today. When super low latency 5G arrives, I have no doubt Google will introduce their own swarming tech and it will be "free"??? to the masses.

    Wayne
     
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  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Because car buyers in the US will opt for the non-hybrid over the full hybrid with a $3000 price increase. A mild hybrid system can be low cost to the point that it is standard equipment.

    We do have a 48v system here on the Ram 1500. The eTorque for the V8 is $1250 more, which is on the high side of the $800 to $1200 price range for such a system. FCA is pushing the torque boost though. I don't think marketing mentions hybrid. By the EPA rating, the system is good for 11% increase in fuel economy; most of it in city driving. The system is standard on the base V6, and it is good for 10% in comparison to the Classic truck.
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=40395&id=40736&id=39940&id=40394
    We aren't the typical driver here. The masses don't hypermile. The technology will help them more, though how much still depends on their specific drive.
     
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  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Trollbait:

    We have covered the RAM 1500 eTorque in detail a number of times already. The 3.6L had decent efficiency and "felt" slightly more efficient than the previous gen 3.6L but around town, it was simply start/stop and was not that impressive in to me.

    2019 RAM 1500 with the 3.6L eTorque

    [​IMG]

    Wayne
     
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  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Through September, Toyota sold 258,456 Camries and 20,393 Camry hybrids.
    Assuming every car sold was an LE, over 10k miles, the hybrids will save 2.45 million gallons of gas than if they had just been ICE models sold.
    If all 258,456 Camries sold had been a mild hybrid seeing a 10% improvement, it would be 7.34 mil gallons saved. 3.85 mil saved with just a 5% improvement.
    The current mix of Rav4s saves more than if they were all mild hybrids, but the number of hybrid Rav4s sold is high, being 37% of sales. The Avalon is 23%, and rest are around 10%. Toyota is willing to let their AWD profits cover the hybrid cost on the Rav4, so the price to the customer is about what a mild hybrid would cost them.

    The benefits of these mild hybrids comes about from the potential of having lots of them on the road, and then could simply be because of their lower overall emissions.
    These mild hybrid systems are start/stop with some regen. I think 10% improvement is high, but the end users actual drive will have more bearing on that than will a full hybrid. It won't do anything if the driving is nearly all highway miles. They should be better at start/stop as the larger battery allows more stops, and the more powerful motor means smoother starts.

    The V8 hybrid might be getting better results on Fuelly(5% at best), but that is more an example on why decimal places should be included when discussing MPG.
     
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  17. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    I just found out something else totally cool about this car. Open the rear hatch and there's a lever that swings a towing hitch out of hiding and into place. That's rad! See it work @ 3:30:

     
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  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    HI Jay:

    That is cool!

    Wayne
     
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  19. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Bah! After googling the feature a little more to learn of the car's tow capacity, I find that it's not a new feature. It's on the 7th gen Golf also--just not in the US because litigious society. Most of the rest of the world gets a neat feature and we get a poke in the eye with a stick. European tow capacity is 1700lbs (I am told). US tow capacity is 0lbs. In fact, attaching a tow bar voids warranty.
     
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  20. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Everybody says that. But I'm not so sure that's the reason.

    I suspect the real reason is that in the US, .. the auto manufacturers can/will/ and definitely want to sell you a (high(er) priced) pickup/SUV for for your trailer hauling duties.

    /I called my auto insurance company on this very subject yesterday, The annual increase in policy cost to add a utility trailer that will be towed by both my car and my pickup? $2.00 **(not kidding)

    ** that lets me keep the same comprehnsive/liability/collision on the towing vehicle. But if you want to actually insure the trailer and its contents that is expensive ($1,200/year). Not sure how that compares to a pickup that's hauling "precious cargo" in the bed, .. but I suspect it's the same (i.e. if you get into a wreck with a riding lawnmower in the bed, .. your auto insurance will not reimburse you for repairs to the lawnmower).

    //this is the way I understood it in the phone conversation, .. but I do need to spend some time looking at the actual policy quote -- so take it with a grain of salt
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
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