Ford and the "No More Cars" Statement(s) – Q1 2018 Earnings Up 9 Percent

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Oxis is the lithium sulfur battery manufacturer partnered with the competing Airbus group:

    “According to Huw Hampson-Jones, CEO of OXIS, “in the last 12 months, the pace of technological development has quickened substantially. This reflects our collaboration with some of the world’s foremost material companies, as well as clients in the aviation, defence and automotive sectors. OXIS has a special programme valued at US$10m, dedicated to the development of high powered lithium sulfur cells for electric buses and trucks. In many ways, over the course of the next 2-3 years with commercial development, technological achievements as well as the mass production of lithium sulfur cells coming on stream, the case for investing in lithium-ion gigafactories is a “fool’s paradise.””

    /Sion is also in this “lithium sulfur” space, and Sony.
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  2. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

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  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Here’s the Ford guy with all the answers to our Ford questions, Hau Thai-Tang:

    /2 big takeaways:
    1. F-150 efficiency gains will keep consumers in said product, even with higher fuel prices
    2. “Beyond lithium” — Ford is planning for next gen batteries

    // too bad I didn’t find this video back at the start of the thread—- it would’ve saved a LOT of googling and typing. But, in the “point of a journey department” — Validation — I will give myself a small pat on the back for boiling it down to a mostly correct analysis. tmoomo (that’s my opinion of my opinion):D
    ///edit-add: I’m going to guess that the Ford PHEV drivetrains will allow (are designed) for a substantial battery reduction (battery delete) for 8 years or so later if/when the pack is done. IOW the vehicle will still perform just fine with no ( or a very small) pack. So for a fee, Ford will remove the old pack and do the necessary software changes.
    —— so 8 1/2 years down the road you’ll have 2 options on your ailing F150 PHEV battery
    1. Pay $7,800 for a whole new pack (prolly include a 2 yr warranty)
    2. Pay $1,695 to have a “delete” kit installed (inc. battery disposal fee). Gets the vehicle running again (very little change in performance) and gets rid of all those warning lights on the dash.
    — if (at time of vehicle purchase) Ford makes it known that option 2 will be available, I Think it would boost buyer confidence and increase PHEV sales.

    ////“betting the farm” removed
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
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  4. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    But, that news release is from 2014.
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  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Sure is. That’s why I put “From 2014”
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  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Ford product development comments added.
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Seeing how Ford is moving to parallel hybrids, a PHEV delete for old cars should be very doable.
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  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Another "next gen battery corroboration" story. This time Toyota + Panasonic (and Mazda, Subaru, .. maybe Honda):

    Toyota and Panasonic to build electric car batteries together
    Japanese duo eyes pole position in field crucial to auto industry's future
    "NAGOYA, Japan -- Toyota Motor and Panasonic plan to set up a joint venture in 2020 to manufacture batteries for electric vehicles, joining forces to compete more effectively on cost and scale with rising Chinese players in a key area for the future of the auto industry, Nikkei has learned.

    The venture, in which Toyota is to hold a 51% stake with Panasonic owning the rest, will be announced as soon as this week. Panasonic will shift five automotive battery production facilities in Japan and China to the new company, though the U.S. plant it operates under a partnership with American automaker Tesla will not be included.
    In the early 2020s, Toyota and Panasonic will look to launch mass production of batteries with 50 times the capacity of those now used in hybrid vehicles, aiming to bring down production costs through higher volume.
    The plan is to supply to Mazda Motor, a Toyota partner on electric car technology, as well as Toyota subsidiary Daihatsu Motor and Subaru. The joint venture will encourage Honda Motor, which uses Panasonic batteries in hybrid vehicles, to adopt the new cells.
    Panasonic and Toyota will also team up to develop next-generation batteries, an undertaking that requires enormous cash outlays and significant technical expertise.
    Projects will include solid-state lithium batteries, which have a high capacity -- a must for improving the range of electric cars -- and are safer than existing options. The two companies had reached a deal in 2017 to explore a tie-up in the field."

    /more announcements should happen this week
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  9. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I think the upgrade cost on a 15 to 20 kwh PHEV upgrade (commercial trucks, F150 etc...) may be closer to $8,500 (higher than my original guess). So US payback may be too high for volume sales (sub $3 gas prices).

    But in the European market ($6 gas prices) , payback could be in as little as 3 years. This could be the European "prize" ford is eyeballing in the VW agreement.

    /i.e. Commercial van, city duty, one charge/day is good for about 100 mi/day 18 mpg now becomes 36 mpg (+electricity). The math probably works with high enough gas prices.
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Ford will be able to do a PHEV for a much lower cost than an aftermarket company, and it should be a better system.

    If they can market it as a performance boost, like a diesel, they shouldn't have trouble selling it in the US. Specially if they include a generator function.
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  11. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Is this is what Ford is "buying into" with their VW deal? Both sides of the electric vehicle spectrum, on both sides of the pond. Ford will tend to the 'heavy end' --trucks, vans in PHEV form, while VW handles the 'light work' -- BEV passenger vehicles and a "power bank" charge network?

    Volkswagen Is Getting Into the Electric Vehicle Battery Game
    "Volkswagen’s electrification goals don’t just include pumping out millions of cars — the German giant is now also getting into the battery game with gusto.

    VW made two big announcements Friday. Firstly, its Group Components unit — its in-house supplier, which became an independent corporate entity this month — will assume “end-to-end responsibility for the battery, from competence development for the cells through to recycling.”

    This is huge news, as Europe’s auto industry notoriously lacks a big battery manufacturer, leaving it at the mercy of Asian suppliers. A couple months back, the German government set aside more than $1 billion to support domestic production of battery cells, and there’s been talk of a German consortium that may include Volkswagen."

    "VW’s other big announcement is that Group Components will, from next year, start producing fast-charging stations for electric vehicles. The stations will be “based on the principle of a powerbank” and will able to charge up to four cars at once.

    Interestingly, the ultimate plan is for the stations to reuse batteries that previously powered Volkswagen’s electric vehicles, but that lost too much capacity to be suited to that purpose.

    /So the "power bank" plan should mitigate demand charges to a fair degree but might be a slow process to build out, ..(assuming they are going to wait on the used batteries to build the charge network ).
    //I would suppose/guess/who knows(?) the deal is going to include tech and supplies/suppliers in batteries, autonomy
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    That's the basic plan. They'll have to use new cells for the chargers at first. I suspect Tesla may also plan on using cells from cars in Powerwalls, and some Supercharger locations might already have a battery bank.

    The VW chargers are also designed to be 'mobile'. So they can be charged up and moved to where needed, like game day at the stadium parking lot.
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  13. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  14. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    The top end (diesel titanium) lists for $13,693.

    And the 1.5 diesel "real world" mileage?
    618 mile road trip, .. 98.9 mpg:

    ... hmmm. Where have I seen these kind of tests before?

    /btw, this car is in the neighborhood of 1,000 lbs lighter than a jetta TDI, so while high speed highway mpg may not be a whole lot better, I would think careful city/ slow speed driving would see relatively much higher mpg returns.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2019
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  15. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Nice ! Bring us that 1.5 diesel in a Fiesta 3-door. Yeah , THAT'll happen.
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  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Keep in mind that that curb weight price for India would be before all the equipment is added to meet US safety and environmental standards.

    The TaTa Nano had a price around $2000 when released in India. After being made legal for US roads, the estimated price was around $8000.
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  17. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Big difference (as in 1/2 ton of weight and over 1 ton of quality) between a Figo and a Nano. The Figo is based off of the Fiesta platform and in higher trims already incorporate air bags, EBS, EBD and whatnot.

    Not sure about emissions on the diesel, though. I 'think' Ford sells that same engine in Europe, so it would 'probably' pass here(?).
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2019
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    In theory, Ford could leave things like the door braces and pillar reinforcements off the Indian car to save a little weight and cost. The weight increases for safety aren't all from air bags; much of it is in needing more metal. If it was just air bags, Ford could have sold the old Ranger long past 2011.

    EPA is strictest in the world on diesel passenger vehicles. Euro5 cars won't meet it, and the Euro6 limits still don't match the EPA. It's why VW felt they needed to cheat in the first place. If it doesn't have SCR, the Figo would need it for the US.
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  19. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member


      • Ford is investing approximately $900 million in its southeast Michigan manufacturing footprint and targeting 900 incremental direct new jobs through 2023
      • This includes the company’s plan to expand production capacity at Flat Rock (Mich.) Assembly Plant – including next-generation fully electric vehicles – targeting to invest more than $850 million through 2023 and adding a second shift
      • Southeast Michigan workers also will make Ford’s first autonomous vehicles starting in 2021; Ford also is investing in an Autonomous Vehicle center where employees will install the vehicles’ unique self-driving technology and unique interiors
      • Ford also is building its next-generation North American Transit Connect in North America in 2021, boosting program profits and regional content – in line with the proposed United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA)"

      /which would support the "Ford is pulling back on cars now to make the jump into the electric/autonomous future" theory.
    • Bill Ford says: "Batten down the hatches and find a fraulein to partner up with -- we're headed into an electric storm!"
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2019
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  20. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    "The new 2.0-liter EcoBoost engine, available on Titanium, is projected to produce 250 horsepower and 275 lb.-ft. of torque using 93 octane fuel, while turning in a 0-60 mph time up to 10 percent faster than the outgoing Escape 2.0-liter. When properly configured, it is rated to tow 3,500 pounds.***

    The all-new 1.5-liter EcoBoost, standard on S, SE and SEL, is projected to produce 180 horsepower and 177 lb.-ft. of torque using 93 octane fuel. When properly configured, it is rated to tow 2,000 pounds.*** To help conserve fuel, the 1.5-liter EcoBoost debuts cylinder deactivation, a Ford first for North America, which senses when one cylinder isn’t needed and shuts it down automatically. The system can activate or deactivate a cylinder in 14 milliseconds to maintain a smooth ride.

    SE Sport and Titanium models come standard with Ford’s innovative fourth-generation hybrid propulsion system, which includes an all-new 2.5-liter Atkinson cycle hybrid engine and electronic continuously variable transmission. The front-wheel-drive hybrid model is projected to produce a combined system horsepower of 198, and a top speed of 85 mph in electric-only mode.

    The plug-in hybrid variant, available on every trim level except S and SE Sport, projects a best-in-class EPA-estimated range of at least 30 miles in electric-only mode. Escape Plug-In Hybrid has a Level 1 / Level 2 AC charging port. Using a 110-volt Level 1 charge, the estimated time to fully charge the battery is 10 to 11 hours. Using a 240-volt Level 2 charge, charge time drops to roughly 3.5 hours.

    Hybrid models feature four EV modes that allow customers to select the settings most suitable for their individual needs. This means:

    • In Auto EV mode, the vehicle decides whether to run on gas or electric power
    • In EV Now mode, drivers can operate on all-electric driving
    • In EV Later mode, drivers can switch to full gas-powered driving to conserve electric miles for later
    • In all-new EV Charge mode, drivers can continue to charge the battery while driving and generate electric-only miles to use later"

    ... all it takes is $
    /curious to see if they give the hybrid/ PHEV a tow rating
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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