55 mpg Rated 2019 Honda Insight Reveal at the NYIAS

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Super Moderator

    When I see cars like the non hybrid Camry getting 49 MPG highway and the Cruze diesel getting 60 in Consumer Reports testing it bugs the hell out of me they don't get hit with a surcharge. They both get better mileage than this miserable Ioniq I bought.
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Thunderstruck:

    The Cruze diesel was great on the highway but purely a 20 to 25 mpg car around town for most. It was really bad around town. :(

    The new 18/19 Camry and Camry Hybrid however are spectacular. The Camry Hybrid in both realms.

    Wayne
     
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  3. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Was the Cruze diesel in the turbo a lot while in town? If drivers could reduce in-town turbo use (probably tough), would that increase in-city MPG?
     
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Litesong:
    I drove it at the MAMA Spring Rally 2 years ago on a 5-mile RT drive loop. It did not even finish in the middle of the pack vs a variety of hybrids and non-hybrids.

    I do not remember all the details but I posted here somewhere???

    Wayne
     
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  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    New pricing for the 2020 model was announced along with a new Platinum White Pearl exterior color. The 2020 Insight's EPA ratings remain unchanged at 55/49/52 mpgUS city/highway/combined for the LX and EX while the Touring maintains its 51/45/48 mpgUS city/highway/combined ratings.

    2020 Honda Insight

    [​IMG]

    2020 Honda Insight Pricing

    LX - $22,930 (same price as the 2019)
    EX - $24,310 (+$150 over the 2019 MY)
    Touring - $28,340 (+$150 over the 2019 MY)

    D&H is up $10 to $930.

    Wayne
     
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  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    It is about time we were inside a new 3rd gen Honda Insight! :) I was supposed to be in a 2020 Accord Hybrid beginning on Friday but it had not yet come into the press fleet as a Honda Exec had it for videos or something? The Press Fleet handlers were gracious enough to provide me with next week’s car this week so I would not be waiting 6+ hours for its return.

    2020 Honda Insight Touring Trim Monroney

    [​IMG]

    2020 Honda Insight Touring Trim - 51/45 mpg city/highway Calibration Drive

    [​IMG]
    Torrance, CA Shell - aFCD, Trip A. and Garmin Reset and topped off.

    [​IMG]
    Carlsbad, CA Shell - 80.2 mpg and 80.7 miles indicted/81.4 miles actual on .958 Gal = 84.96 mpg​

    The aFCD offset came in at an incredible positive 6.0 percent. No way. :( With that high an aFCD offset, we will be completing another calibration over an entire tank.

    Wayne
     
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  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    From the first to second top off covering some 81.4 miles between Torrance, CA and Carlsbad, CA on Friday afternoon, Jan. 31st, 2020, I drove almost 700-miles to bring the tank down to just 10 mi DTE before filling at a Costco in Riverside, CA this morning, Monday Feb. 3, 2020. That is a lot of driving in just 2+ days. In fact, by the time I arrived home this morning, the Insight has piled on almost 800-miles!

    The 2020 Honda Insight final calibration results look like this:

    55.0 mpg over 592.6 miles indicated -- 597.1 miles actual on 10.710 Gal = 55.8 mpg.

    2020 Honda Insight Touring Trim - Final Calibration

    [​IMG]
    55.0 mpg indicated vs 55.8 mpg actual.​

    A reasonable 1.5 percent aFCD over report and that is in line with many Honda's we have driven in the past.

    I am flying into Chicago to attend the Chicago Auto Show Press Days starting tomorrow night so I had to get this completed today. I will be in Chicago from Feb. 4 – 8th in time to get back and swap out of the Insight into the Accord Hybrid on Feb 10th back in Torrance, CA.

    With that out of the way, a few quick first drive impressions.

    Efficiency

    I was always concerned with the 2019 – 2020 Honda Insight Touring trims efficiency given our short drive way back in late 2018 at the MAMA Spring Rally in Elkhart Lake, WI. While the 93-mpg indicated result was ok, it was the SoC use to achieve that result on 9.4-mile drive loop that left me concerned.

    Around town 70+ mpg is always a given. Out on the highway, it depends on yours and the speed of traffic around you. Any slowdown or a stop and crawl, the aFCD climbs fast. Anything over 60 mph and it falls just as quick. Where it really falls is 654+ and steep grades.

    Some of you may remember my experience with a 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid way back in late 2013. Like this Insight, any slower traffic and it provided extremely high efficiency. Well above its competitors at the time. ON the highway, it fell off precipitously and I am seeing the same from the Insight Touring. If only our Insight was the EX trim w/ the 16” Michelin EnergySaver A/S vs the Touring’s 17” Continental ProContacts.

    The weight difference from the LX/EX to the Touring is just under 90 pounds with the only difference accounting for the Touring’s 10 percent fall off in ratings being those tires and wheels. We are equipped with the FuelRobbers instead of the FuelSavers. :(

    Another item, is during the climbs, does the 2020 Insight experience the high revs like that we experienced in the 14 Accord Hybrid so many years ago? Yes, it unfortunately does. I first tried the 5 to 6 percent grades on the 73 Toll road between Laguna Niguel, CA and Irvine, CA. The 5+ percent grades whether you were traveling at 50 mph or 70 mph during the climb, the heavily atkinsonized 107 hp and 99 lb-ft. of torque 1.5L spins up well into the 4k + range as it relies more and more on the 129 hp and 197 lb-ft. of torque electric motor (151 hp total system output) and it hangs there for the entire climb with no respite. Despite the fluid filled bushings front and rear, the heavy insulation application and Active Noise Cancellation, the Touring really roars. I can imagine the EX/LX punching out the high revs even louder inside the cabin.

    A 107 hp motor has more than enough ooommmppphhh to move a 3k pound car up that grade at speed without 4k RPMs so the interaction between the smallish ICE and two-motor system continues to be an area of work for the Honda engineers to work on.

    After 800-miles of a mix of Southern CA stop and crawls, city. Suburban, higher speed Intestate and relatively steep mountain grades, I suspect the 51/45 mpg rated Insight Touring trim would allow a std. commuter 45 mpg, a rideshare driver 47 mpg, and a high-speed Courier just 41 mpg. I will narrow this down once I have knocked out the steady states when I get back from Chicago on Saturday. Not bad but not great either. On the highway, my now sold 32/40/35 mpg rated 18 Elantra Eco “MAY” be able to best the 51/45/48 mpg rated Insight. Around town, only the Prius lineup – all can best it. I sure wish I had an EX or LX this week. Both the LX/EX having poly wheels vs leather wrapped is an unacceptable and very unfortunate exclusion imho. The Touring’s $4,030 USD upcharge over the EX to receive leather, leather wrapped wheel, heated/power seats, auto wipers, power sunroof, and higher power audio w/ embedded NAVI, is far too high an amount for that small amount of equipment imho. :(

    Ride and Handling are Honda like superb. While many compacts are moving to independent rear ends and thus R&H quotients have improved, the Insight has an unusually compliant ride with little body roll as you push harder into corners. The application of slight braking on the inside and even some passive toe adjustment during cornering makes it a dream to driving corners.

    Infotainment? Remember last week’s Prius AWD-e infotainment debacle? The Insight Touring is only slight better. Despite the EX and Touring including Android Auto, the Touring’s embedded NAVI, text, and audio control is overriding Android Auto. Hit the talk/voice button and you are switched back to the garbage embedded NAVI and audio system. To see the two titans of Automotive Engineering excellence, fail so miserably on the infotainment front shakes my faith in both companies to the core. The Touring uses an excellent Garmin back end for its embedded NAVI but… It does not allow Android Auto with Google Maps, AAs own voice control of Pandora/Spotify, and voice to text and text to voice to work over it at all. Even after setting up a map direction before plugging your phone into the vehicle, all other OEMs back out and the map transfers to the central display seamlessly with Android Auto taking over. In Honda’s case, nope. It worked about 2 out of 20 times I tried but most of the time, the start and destination appear but you have to hit navigate and it works for 10 to 20-seconds only to provide a message “Retry.”

    [​IMG]

    I suspect the Insight EX without the Honda embedded NAVI SW will work much better but until I get the opportunity to drive one, I am cautious. Today’s buyer expectation is that Infotainment works as well as providing high efficiency, low emissions, and performance. I have driven 208 – 2020 Nissan, Subaru, and Mitsubishi rentals over the past 4-months. I plug in my phone and Android Auto allows everything to work. I have plugged my phone into any number of Hyundai’s, Kia’s, Jeep Wrangler’s and Ram pickups and it simply works. How can Toyota and now Honda screw something up that is so necessary so badly???

    Safety

    The crash test safety ratings are as usual, Honda chart topping and superb. An IIHS Top Safety Pick+ rating and a 5-star rating from the NHTSA makes the 2019 and now the 2020 Insight Hybrid the std. bearer when it comes to crash test safety.

    Moving onto the advanced active safety systems, Honda has made dramatic improvements since our last drive of a just released all-new 2014 Honda Accord Hybrid back in late 2013.

    The Auto Radar CC is much smoother than that we have experienced in the past. Decelerations are much less abrupt and encroaching vehicles do not cause the system to slam on the brakes for no good reason. Accelerations once the impediment is clear is still a bit too harsh and they could cure this with a 3-setting system – slow, mid, and fast solution like Hyundai. While not as smooth as Toyota’s during accel and decel or Hyundai’s during accel, Honda’s latest iteration is at least in the top 50 percent of other OEMs offerings.

    The Lane Keep Assist is also better. The three jerks of the wheel, warning of leaving your lane display when you get close to the edge, and actual steering back toward center is in the top quartile imho. If they did not force the three-wheel jerk, it would be just behind the Hyundai/Kia system in terms of recognition and action to maintain the lane. I have not tested the latest Nissan ProPilot system in a while and it was the first to push into gentle lane centering arena. I am just not sure it has improved enough since the Titan over 1.5 years ago to compete with either the Hyundai or the Honda system.

    In any case, if the Honda system was taking more samples per second, I think they could smooth out the interaction between front accel and decels and LKA lane centering. It is still a bit too binary and you can feel the system doing its work vs others that do it without a noticeable change from millisecond to millisecond.

    I better clean up the car a bit before packing for Chicago so I can take pictures when I get back. After 800-miles, a small number of those miles in the rain, its exterior is getting unacceptably dirty and I do not like dirty. ;)

    Wayne
     
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  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    One other item and I will add a pic of maybe tomorrow before I leave as the car is clean again. ;)

    The hood is made of such thin aluminum that if you lean on it, it depresses quite a bit. At speed, it vibrates enough so that I keep thinking the hood is not latched. I have unlatched and latched it more than a few times to make sure and it is solidly latched. Just that the hood is vibrating excessively just ahead of my field of view from 60 mph and up.

    Wayne
     
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  9. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    You go 60 mph ? :)
     
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  10. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Regarding Android Auto, I can get voice control over Google Maps by pressing the microphone button on the top right, from within the app. The experience in my Civic is also very unpredictable if I set a destination ahead of time and then plug the phone into my car. Sometimes the guidance will transfer over and sometimes I'll have to look up the destination again. I was looking forward to having Android Auto before I got it, but after living with Honda's implementation for a few years, I only find it to be a marginal upgrade over using my cell phone in a cell phone mount.

    android-auto-google-maps-route.jpg

    My hood is also very flimsy. It's actually made of steel, too. For a good thrill, drive on an un-divided highway and watch it vibrate after a big rig passes you going in the opposite direction :)
     
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  11. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    The hood, and all the sheet metal on these cars is thin. The downside of lightweight efficiency.

    However, I doubt the hood is so flimsy that it's vibrating at highway speed. I've never seen mine do that -- and I drive a LOT faster than 60 mph. There must be something else going on.

    I would look for
    - Latch/ trim pieces improperly installed/adjusted.
    - windshield spray nozzles or anything else installed in the hood --not seated in tightly


    /An elantra (40 mpg hwy rated) is going to beat the insight (45 mpg hwy rated) on a highway speed steady state?? -- the touring wheels and tires on the insight must be taking a huge toll.

    --- two sides of the same coin? -- I wonder if the "upgraded" wheel/tire combo could be setting up some airflow dynamics that are causing the hood shake? (i.e. airflow under the car -- pulsing out the front wheels is causing hood vibration -- not to mention hammering the highway mpg)

    ADD -- although the wheels on my '17 civic (also 250/r17's) look similar -- my "air gaps" stop about 2.5 inches before reaching the outer circumfernce of the wheel -- where as the insight touring "air gaps" go all the way to the edge.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
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  12. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    So Wayne, As you scan back over the last 20 years.... which would you rather drive --- a 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Honda Insight?:rolleyes:
     
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  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I may have found the issue. I was looking around the net and some Honda owners are reporting older Android OSs. I checked the Insight's and sure enough, it is not exactly the latest and greatest.

    [​IMG]

    It uses Android 6.0.1 "Marshmallow" with a release date of Dec 7, 2015. Google is up to 10.0 that was released in Sep. 3, 2019.

    I found the system versions in the Sonata Hybrid but nothing is labeled from Android. It may not be using the Android OS?

    In any case, the 17 Sonata Hybrid is a Limited with the Ultimate including an embedded NAVI. Android Auto works every time without any issues. In the Insight, it does not work worth a damn! Plugged and transferring a map or trying to input an address via voice into Google Maps does not work at all. Entering an address while in Park and typing it in, it appears to work but that is not the point of Android AUTO.

    Edwin, sometimes. ;)

    Mike, is that a pic of your Android Auto this morning? There was a major upgrade about 3 or more months back that changed the look significantly. See if you can update your phone to the latest just for the more attractive GUI. My AA experience is even worse in this Insight and I am very disappointed. Not as bad as the Prius mess but damn, how can a world class automotive engineering company screw this up so bad when everybody else gets it so right? Toyota's latest Corolla and Prius being worse of course.

    Carcus and Mike, this hood vibration is definitely an issue. The latch is solid and the hood is seated. When I place my hand on it, I could crease the aluminum hood if I were to push down hard enough. I went out this morning and at 55 mph, it starts vibrating. At 60 mph, I can see it easily. At 70+ mph, it is rockin and rolling. Enough so that is appears it is ready to release - read break off - and come over the roof. The center is not vibrating/buffeting as much as the sides but it is definitely rocking. I looked under the hood and even into the wheel wells to see if there was something that broke off allowing an inrush of air to slam into the underside of the hood. I did not see anything.

    Regarding the 17 - 20 Elantra, only the Eco trim. That thing blew its out EPA highway at speeds that were unworldly. It was very windy and cold here last night - 20+ mph winds and temps in the low to mid 40s - so I could not complete the steady states last night. I have the night of the 8th when I get back from Chicago and 9th before driving it back out to LA to turn it in on the morning of the 10th.

    I also checked the air gaps for you. 2.5" all the way around just like your Civic. Since they are essentially the same platform, I suspected they would be really close.

    And finally, of the three generations, I loved the first gen Insight's efficiency. Even today, nothing touches it on the highway but its utility, comfort, and safety are absolutely bare bones and I am well beyond that at my age. The second gen was ok on the highway but around town, the 3rd and 4th gen Prius absolutely buried it. The third gen Insight is my favorite. Even over the 4th gen Prius due to the more std. appearance inside and out, better safety, and vastly better driver ergonomics and fit. It most certainly has infotainment issues which are a large part of the driving experience nowadays but the Prius is such a mess there is not a point of mentioning it since its infotainment is at least a decade behind everyone else.

    Wayne
     
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  14. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    While driving out and about this morning, I was watching the displays for anomalies. The fun kind and this popped up while in a stop and crawl between the Mormon Temple and UCSD Medical campus' and hospitals on the 5.

    2020 Honda Insight Touring

    [​IMG]

    Speed limits are 65 mph all along the California coast including all of SD County unless way out East on the 15 where it hits 70 mph. I have no idea where the Speed Limit sign recognition camera(s) picked this one up at? Maybe a plate with 85 on it??? It lasted about 3 to 4-minutes before picking up the next 65 mph PSL sign and it revered back to 65 mph. I thought it was funny as Honda threw me a curve ball to put a smile on my face. ;)

    Wayne
     
  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I am packing for the Chicago Auto Show flight so updates are going to get thin until I settle in tomorrow. Make sure you watch the Hyundai Livestream from the show floor on Jan. 6th at 09:30 AM CST as it is pertinent to the 2020 Insight we are in this week and the 2020 Prius AWD-e we drove last week. That is as far as I had better go with this. ;)

    Wayne
     
  16. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    It's just a photo I found online. I updated to the newer version when it came out. I'm actually surprised that the Insight is running Android 6, I think my Civic is lower than that. I'll try to take a look tonight.
     
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  17. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    And you thought Android 6.0.1 was old!!!

    IMG_20200204_171023.jpg
     
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  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Mike:

    Good God that is ancient!!! I am surprised it allows any Android device to connect or app to work on it.

    Wayne
     
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  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I had Marian take me to the airport and I have a few hours before the plane departs so I may as well add to the 2020 Honda Insight's story.

    2020 Honda Insight Touring - Apple CarPlay with Google Maps

    [​IMG]

    While on the way, I swapped the connected phone from my Galaxy Note 8 to Marian's iPhone 10. I had her input her next destination just prior to plugging in. In it goes, up comes Apple CarPlay, click that, and her Google Maps auto populate to that next destination. Yeah!!! Ok, can we change the destination by voice to somewhere else? Push the talk button and it goes right back into Honda's archaic menu with Navigation, Audio ... etc. This is poor programming at its best.

    Ok,let us launch Pandora on Marian's iPhone manually. I see the icon appear on the screen so that is a good thing. Swap to it with Pandora up. Hit the talk button, back to Honda's ancient infotainment control screen and focused procedural voice input and its lousy apps.

    At least Google Maps worked. Somewhere in the pile of menus there has got to be something to stop this Honda infotainment control screen from taking over. It is a decade behind and who wants that?

    Wayne
     
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  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Enough of this negative deep dive into the 2020 Honda Insight Touring's Infotainment system. The 2020 Honda Insight EX probably cures all of this with the non-Embedded NAVI while maintaining the 8" central display and a simple leather wrapped wheel swap makes it the go to Insight vehicle of choice. With $25,265 starting price incl. D&H and a much higher 55/49/52 mpg City/Highway/Combined rating, it would be my choice. For a $23k price or less of course. ;)

    So where does the 2020 Honda Insight shine? It is by far the best looking super hybrid available for the time being. Super meaning 50+ EPA ratings.

    We all know the Prius is polarizing and Toyota does not appear to want to do much about that. The Prime designed toned the negatives down quite a bit but it did not negate all of the "out there" design attributes.

    The Ioniq has a decent enough interior after the refresh in 2020 but it lacks anything to anchor it as a sleek looker from a curb appeal perspective. The large flat face grille helps but it lacks the finer points like a full chrome day light opening (DLO) surrounding the exterior profile windows, lacks a chrome chin and lower rear fascia dam, and lacks the smoothness of a sedan with a coupe like rear trunk edge.

    And then there is the 2020 Honda Insight Touring. I like it better than the angular Civic from which its platform is based. It has an Audi A7 like rear profile without the shoulder haunches and in the expensive looking Crimson Red - deep maroon - color, it is in a weight class all by its lonesome vs the two true competitors.

    2020 Honda Insight Touring

    [​IMG]
    Marian takes the wheel.

    [​IMG]
    Its best angle and I love it!​

    There is nothing that looks this good and is this "fuel" efficient besides the Honda Insight. Yet. Similarly, the Tesla Model 3 and Porsche Taycan 4S have the EV world locked up but those are ultra lux by comparison to the Insight, Ioniq, and Prius.

    Wayne
     
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