Uber - LYFT Rideshare

Discussion in 'General' started by xcel, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Thanks for including the used vehicles in your analysis, Wayne. I had wondered how the plug-in vehicles (used strictly as hybrids of course) would fare. Too bad about the (lack of) 5th seat in the first couple model years of the Prime. The 5-seat requirement is a real thing in ride share? The current cost of a low-mileage Prime is in the teens, and I suspect I could sell mine for roughly what I paid, even after a couple years in with 30k miles.

    The term ride share has me thinking... how often do strangers share a ride? Or maybe the question should be what's the average passenger count in your experience?
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I've heard of a certain insurance company that would end an account, if they learned the driver was legally racing a car they did not cover.

    I suspect most insurance companies will take a dim view if they learned that a car with consumer level coverage was being used for ride sharing. Can't give that risk a level of a value, but it is something to keep in mind for those driving for Lyft or Uber.
     
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  3. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Could look at it from a different direction... the insurance company's consumer level coverage only applies to a very small percentage of the car's use, so reduced risk. Of course the insurance company won't look at it that way. :)
     
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:
    Unfortunately the 5th seat requirement is real and there have been tens of requests where I have actually had 4 passengers plus myself onboard so it makes sense. If the Prime would have had the 5th seating position from the get go, it may have been in my fleet instead of the Elantra as the 2018 Prime's were going out the door earlier this year for under $17k after all the discounts + TTL. While not in the Elantra Eco steal of a deal late 2017 period when Hyundai was providing up to $7k off with all the deals stacked - Dealer disc., Factory Rebates incl Uber Disc, Finance Disc, BoostUp etc..., the Prime would have proven itself to be more reliable and far more efficient. Not that 43.1 lmpg after 156k miles from the Elantra Eco is a bad showing, it is not, but a Prime is an easy 60+ mpg with no plug-in activity doing rideshare with any of us behind the wheel. The fuel savings, resale, and longevity would have overwhelmed the Elantra Eco's excellent showing soon after purchase.

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime

    [​IMG]
    I still remember the day I snapped that shot. One of my better ones. ;)

    As a table top exercise, let me assume the 2018 Toyota Prius Prime was a 5-seater from its launch. Using the exact same methodology that the Elantra Eco was actually put through and all the other vehicles were calculated for while undergoing the same exact pattern of purchase, refuels, long hour driving regiments, insurance, maintenance and repairs, etc. Its final costs would have looked like this.

    A 2018 Prius Prime Plus for $17k incl. the $4,500 Fed and $1,500 state of CA tax rebate + TTL (($27,500 * .0725) + $651 (title, plates, and 2 years of registration) = $19,644 out the door, paid in full. I would have to add another $600 for an Android Auto upgrade and the $590 worth of accessories I installed in the 18 Elantra that I did not incorporate into the other vehicles costs as it would have been to detailed to find. All-weather mats, USB charging cables and ports, Razor, B&D Vac, Velcro tablet mount, Kindle Fire HD 10, Netflix subscriptions etc. so the entire vehicle list provided above received a break of about $700 since I did not incorporate any of those real world costs into their calculations. I could go back in and do that. Maybe later but will for the Prius Prime example below. All-in, a 2018 Prius Prime Plus would have cost $20,834 ready to "Rideshare Roll" just as my 18 Elantra Eco was and the 17 Sonata Hybrid Limited is currently.
    • 52 mpg rated 18 Toyota Prius Prime Plus: MSRP incl. D&H of $28,195 with its purchase at $17k after Toyota Rebate, dealer disc., Fed and State TCs +TTL and Accessories = $20,834
    2018 Toyota Prius Prime KBB TIV

    [​IMG]
    KBB - TIV after 156k miles Trade-in Value in Fair Condition: $8,830.​

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime 156k Mile Rideshare Vehicle Depreciation Expense
    • 18 Toyota Prius Prime KBB TIV in Fair Condition after 156k miles of Rideshare: $8,830
    With the Residual TIV in hand, we can calculate the Prime Plus depreciation through the 156k mile trial case study period from the purchase price plus TTL minus the TIV.
    • 18 Toyota Prius Prime Plus depreciation after 156k miles of Rideshare: $12,004
    2018 Toyota Prius Prime 156k Mile Rideshare Vehicle Fuel, Finance, Insurance, and Maintenance Expense

    Using the same scenerio as the 18 Elantra Eco with year one between 4 miles and 74,400 miles at $2.80/gallon in IL and year two between 87,800 miles and 156,250 miles - 68,452 miles, at $3.38/gallon avg. here in CA.

    IL electricity rates at $0.13x/kWh would have made charging the Prius Prime overnight the equivalent of $1.50 per gallon gasoline for 35-miles of the 250 miles placed on it each day but I left it off since it wass a minor plus. In CA with its $0.48/kWh rates, you would never plug-in a PHEV/BEV as the cost equivalent is double gasoline!

    Using what I would expect the Prius Prime Plus to offer, 60 mpg, the fuel costs would have looked liked this.
    • 18 Toyota Prius Prime Plus Fuel Cost at 60 mpg after 156k miles of Rideshare in both IL and CA: $7,328
    2018 Toyota Prius Prime 156k Mile Rideshare Vehicle Financing, Insurance, and Maintenance Expenses

    Finance: $10 <-- Paid off immediately.
    Insurance: $1,800
    Maintenance: $1,387 includes two sets of 15" tires, 12 OCs, and general maintenance for $182

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime 156k Mile Rideshare Total Cost of Vehicle Ownership

    Depreciation (Purchase price incl TTL for 2 years – 156k TIV residual), Fuel, Finance, Insurance, plus basic Maintenance and Repair (tires, OCs, fluids, and bulbs etc.), over the almost 2-year study period looks like this:

    18 Toyota Prius Prime Plus [Depreciation of $12,004 + fuel at $7,328 + finance at $0 + Insurance at $1,800 + tires, OCs, brakes, and general maintenance $1,387] = $22,519

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime Plus 156k Mile Rideshare Total Cost of Ownership

    Total Vehicle Cost + consumer consumables and taxes provides the total cost of ownership (TCO). Consumer consumables and Taxes should not have materially changed from the 18 Elantra Eco Rideshare cost study at $3,492 and $9,258 respectively. For a total cost of ownership incl. taxes here in CA, we have the following:
    • 2018 Toyota Prius Prime Plus: $32,269
    2018 and 2019 Total Rideshare Gross Income: $125,164 and all-in expenses listed directly above reveal a net income (Gross minus all-in Expenses), total cost per mile after 142,452 miles, and $/hour after 5,800 hours as follows:

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime 156k Mile Rideshare Net Income, Total Cost Per Mile and After Tax $/hour
    • 18 Toyota Prius Prime: $89,895||$0.226 /mile||$15.50/hour
    • 18 Hyundai Elantra Eco: $86,351||$0.248 /mile||$14.89/hour
    In addition, the Prius Prime should continue on for another 100k miles before any significant repair would occur reducing the TCO even further.

    Although the table top is moot given the 18 Prius Prime only had 4 seats and would not qualify for rideshare, the 2020 does. If the $4k to $4.5k Toyota rebates and $3k dealership discounts reappear for the 2020's in mid to late 2020, any rideshare driver focusing on the lowest vehicle TCO would have to put the Prime at the top of their list.

    To bad the Prius lineup still does not come with Android Auto as that is not a cheap aftermarket upgrade for the Prime or Prius by any stretch.

    2018 Toyota Prius Prime Plus

    [​IMG]

    I did find I not only left out the $700 for Accessories in all of the other vehicles other than the 18 Elantra ECO and 18 Prius Prime Plus, I also left out their insurance costs. I will have to recalculate the entire batch and should have done this in a spreadsheet early on but I did not. :(

    Wayne
     
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  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    Regarding passenger count, I stopped taking Uber Pool - riders that do not know each other - about a year ago as the pay is 10 percent less than non-Pool. On Lyft, my "Share" or "Pool" count was minuscule. Maybe 1 in 100 total rides with maybe 30 percent Shared would be doubled up.

    Wayne
     
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  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Trollbait:
    Some insurers will not insure a rideshare vehicle. Amica as well as most majors do but they will not cover anything during ANY rideshare activity. Some like the very expensive Allstate and State Farm have a gap like coverage for a small extra cost meaning if you have an accident while doing rideshare, you are not relying solely on Uber's and Lyft's $1k and $2.5K collision deductible but $500 or $1,000 just in case.

    Because the Elantra was driven just 5k miles each year off the apps, I specifically told Amica that I am only insuring it for 5k miles per year and they agreed.

    None of these coverages are full ride hail like commercial coverages however. Liability only policy quotes I received began at $6k and went up from there. :(

    IHTHs?

    Wayne
     
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Probably because when the $1 million dollars is used up, the lawyers will look to them. Which will have a cost to the company even if they don't pay out anything.
     
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  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Trollbait:

    I have read that more than a few times from insurance agents that do rideshare on the side too.

    Word on the street is even though Uber and Lyft are using A+ rated top tier companies for their Commercial coverage - State Farm, All State etc..., they are still shady as all get out. My experience with both Uber's and Lyft's insurance group was a total nightmare.

    Wayne
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I completed the lengthy spreadsheet so at least if I need to add more vehicles, it should not take much longer than looking up the MSRP, a few quick looks at what they can be picked up for, and the KBB TIV for the residual.

    Sorry for the small font but to get the entire thing to fit on a std. 17" PC or laptop screen, I had to be very careful with every font and spacing. On a smartphone it will probably be a mess? Click on the pic to get a scrolling clean jpg vs. the out of focus pic shown in your browser.

    The assumptions are all still there. 17" tires are a lot more expensive than 15s and the entire Toyota lineup needs a serious radio/infotainment upgrade. I included all-weather aftermarket mats, cabling, and hardware just as I did on the Elantra Eco so that is added back in as well. I setup insurance at the same cost for all the vehicles with only the Sentra and Civic being able to cut the Collision cost the way I was able to do with the Elantra after 125k miles.

    I did not include any financing since I did not finance the Elantra other than the < $1k for 2-months to receive the additional $500 rebate.

    Regarding taxes, the Federal is the same for any U.S. driver. The 2.2 percent State tax arose from what I had to actually pay in California. Many states have higher State tax rates on this low level of "Taxable NET" income. A few like Texas have none.

    And of course, the 2018 Prius Prime was not eligible for rideshare until the 5th seat was added for the 2020 MY. I highlighted the 18 Prius Prime IN RED so it would not be thought of as applicable. Its low upfront cost, high efficiency, and very high resale is what really makes it the go to if you were going to buy new. Just not new at today's new price but maybe after we see the $4k Toyota rebate and $2 to $3k dealership discounts appear again sometime this winter. And hopefully on the 2020s, not leftover 19s as they are not eligible with seating for just 4 as well.

    I also setup the mpg as what I believe the average consumer would achieve and not what I would vs my actuals in the 2018 Hyundai Elantra Eco. I think the 4th Gen Prius Three and Prime would actually achieve mid to high 60s and the Ioniq in the mid 50s range completing rideshare out here in California.

    I have a number of corrections to complete on my own 18 Elantra Eco details and the variety of vehicles in the "what if" list within the previous few posts as you can tell by the spreadsheet’s details.

    All told, the difference from top to bottom of these typical rideshare vehicles show only a $2 per hour difference not including the Prius Prime. A lightly used - 30 to 60k miles - 2017 Toyota Prius Two Eco for $16k plus the Android Auto radio mod looks better and better all the time... Or a lightly used 2012 Toyota Prius v – also with the Android Auto Radio mod – despite the IIHS SOL problem for around $8k looks pretty good too.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Wayne
     
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  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill, Trollbait, and Chris:

    Should I also include a full spreadsheet including all the typical vehicles but including their typical much higher purchase prices, typical financing, and higher insurance costs the typical Millennial 23 to 38 year old, would pay?

    From the list above beginning below the Elantra Eco, the average cost is $22,500. At 5 percent on a 72-month loan, financing adds another approximately $1,900 over the 2 years to the average vehicle total cost.

    I can also guarantee the typical driver would never come close to $13,808 I paid for the 18 Elantra or pickup a Prius Prime up for $17k after all the deals on both?

    In the rest of the list, the Sentra SV, Ioniq SEL, and Altima SV would probably cost $500 to $1,500 more for the typical buyer. I am not including the unnecessary fleecing that most dealers hit the unsuspecting/untrained buyer with including thousands more on top of MSRP including Market Value Adjustments, alarm systems, fabric protectors, door edge guards, and other worthless and very costly profit center add-ons that dealers coerce buyers to purchase or install.

    Wayne
     
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  11. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    Why not throw in some real disasters like a Dodge Charger or Cadillac XTS (now XT6)? For a real eye-opener, Chevrolet Tahoe, Ford Expedition or Dodge Durango. For some real steep costs per mile, compare Nissan Armada and Toyota Sequoia, too. Heck, anything with a V8 will eat you alive if you're doing ride-share for any length of time. Throw in some steep depreciation - mostly on the full size sedan crowd - and you're working for free or losing money every time the car moves.
     
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  12. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Since you're covering California, have you seen any ride shares using Tesla vehicles, new or old? If they had access to the free superchargers, maybe they can have a go of lower TCO? Any used Teslas out there that may start below ~$25k and won't be worthless at 200k miles? I remember reading about Teslas that ran from CA to NV. I wonder how those fared.
     
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    The Tesla's cannot use the SuperCharger network for free - maybe not at all??? - if they are completing Rideshare. Tesla would know if 200-miles + per day were being placed on a Tesla with a charge from the same area day after day after day. That is how they caught past Model S drivers doing rideshare and removed their ability to use the Super Chargers.

    Wayne
     
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  14. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    re: no supercharging - that figures, Wayne...

    One more. How about one of the many now-corrected, used diesel cars? Lower cost of entry though I don't know if there would be much residual value after a couple hundred thousand miles. How's the operating expense? Slightly higher fuel cost, but should still beat gasoline at cost per mile. DEF? Oil changes?
     
  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    A friend of mine was an SAE Master Tech at a VW Dealership in NC. While TDIs made up just over 20 percent of VW sales, his and the shops booked hours on the TDIs came to over 50 percent. After the TDI debacle, his dealership had to cut hours and numbers of techs because the back end maintenance business was no longer there.

    Rideshare is a slow slogging mess when picking up in inner cities. Having picked up passengers in Austin, Chicago, El Paso, LA, Little Rock, Milwaukee, Phoenix, San Diego, San Francisco, and St Louis - where the bigger money is, I would not want to take a TDI into battle doing rideshare. The Hybrids have the advantage and the TDIs maintenance risk is too high. :(

    If you were talking about a daily courier position between San Diego and Los Angeles, Los Angeles and Las Vegas, San Francisco and Las Vegas, Chicago and Detroit ... A lot of open highway miles, the TDI would be a fantastic addition. Just not running from light to light and stop sign to stop sign.

    Wayne
     
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  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    It is about time I introduce you to the TFY adjustable velcro headrest tablet holder.


    In the video, the installer wrapped it around the headrest horizontally when it should be wrapped around the headrest vertically and between the posts.

    $14.50 on Amazon: TFY Velcro mounted Car Headrest Tablet Holder. It will hold al Kindle Fire's including HD 6, 7, X7, X9, New Fire 7, HD 8, HD 10, Samsung Galaxy S4, S5e, S6, Tab A, Tab A Kids, View 2, and Apple iPad Pro, Air, Pad and mini.

    Here is how I have it mounted in our 17 Sonata Hybrid Limited and had it mounted in my recently sold 18 Elantra Eco.

    TFY Adjustable Velcro Headrest Tablet Mount

    [​IMG]

    After 50k miles of rideshare this year alone, the TFY Velcro headrest tablet holder does not rattle and holds the tablet very snuggly with the plastic coated and Velcro attached mounting tablet supporting HW on top and bottom.

    When I have the front seat all the way forward and angled more vertically – 95 percent of the time for maximum rear seat leg room, I can easily just angle the top of the tablet out from the headrest in approximately 5-degree discrete increments in less than 5-seconds while in the driver’s seat. If someone is occupying the front seat and back seat, I can angle the tablets top back towards the head rest by about 10 degrees to keep the tablet perpendicular to the rear seat passengers’ line of sight.

    If you have children or simply take longer trips with family and friends on board in the back seats, this infotainment add-on not only works, it is practically a giveaway at $14.99!

    Having picked up 2 to 4 person families with their children on vacation from locations all over southern California, fire up a Netflix Cartoon and the vacation hustle and bustle tension simply evaporates. I cannot tell you how many compliments, thank you(s), and tips I have received for having this this inexpensive yet high quality infotainment setup running for all my backseat passengers.

    For 10 to 20-minute rides, Friends and The Office were quite popular. For 30+, the BBC Earth Programs with David Attenborough were watched quite often. For the hour plus drives, full movies or simply completing binge watched series were always hailed with a smile.

    TFY Velcro Adjustable Headrest mount with Kindle Fire HD 10 installed

    [​IMG]
    Running “Avengers: Infiniti War” on Netflix with Wi-Fi supplied by a Samsung Galaxy Note 8 on the T-Mobile network.​

    In two words, this system add-on “KICKS @$$”! If you are in need of back seat infotainment, you cannot do better than this! So much so I own 2 of these, one for my now sold 18 Elantra Eco and one for the 17 Sonata Hybrid, while paying almost double what they cost today!

    Wayne
     
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  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I updated the base spreadsheet to better map what an owner would receive in terms of efficiency, possibly what they would pay for their vehicles including TTL and dealer fees here in California or IL, AND interest on the finance w/ $2,500 down and a 4.5 percent interest rate.

    [​IMG]

    A used compact to midsize - hybrid or non-hybrid - will cost the average FT rideshare driver $0.31 to $0.35/mile if they do not have any accidents or any high-level maintenance items. My IL and CA fuel costs averaged $2.80 and $3.38 respectively. CA has been at ~ $4.10 per gallon for over 3-months now so that could add additional long-term expenses too! PT drivers have a lot fewer miles in which to base their total costs on and will have a significantly higher TCO/mile and a lower wage in most cases.

    Wayne
     
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  18. The short time I did Uber in the Volt I had more than a few high passenger count rides.
    One time I pulled up to a dorm in my 2013 Volt (4 seats). A group of girls walked up to the door and asked if I was the Uber driver. I said yes, how many of you are coming. They said all of us. 2 climbed in the front passenger seat. 6 climbed in the back seat. 9 people in my volt. I didn't complain. I was a 40 year old guy in the middle of a divorce and I had 8 hot (and possibly tipsy) college girls in my car.

    Another ride comes to mind. I used to be the only driver out at 5AM and I get a pick up at an apartment complex. Pull in and there are 5 female foreign language students and all their luggage to go to the bus depot with the bus leaving in about 15 minutes. After multiple attempts to explain in English to them that I have a 4 passenger vehicle and there is 5 of them each with two suitcases possible bigger than they are, one of them manages to say their bus leaves in minutes and I am the only shot or they miss their plane back to their home country for the holidays. I say screw it, if it fits-it ships. I don't know how they all fit with their luggage, and how none of the luggage fell out of the back of the volt driving across campus with the hatch wide open, but we made it.

    Friday nights around campus always resulted in 4 or more in the back, and one or two in the front passenger seat.
     
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