Uber - LYFT Rideshare

Discussion in 'General' started by xcel, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Uber and Lyft Driver Rates across western California. Only San Luis Obispo is worth driving and it is to far away and there is no demand there either. The driver rates are terrible compared to just 3 years ago!


    Uber - $0.585/mile and $0.1575/min
    Lyft - $0.585/mile and $0.1575/min w/ $2.17 min

    San Francisco

    Uber - $0.6825/mile and $0.2925/min
    Lyft - $0.6825/mile and $0.2925/min w/ $3.75 min


    Uber - $0.60/mile and $0.2025/min
    Lyft - $0.60/mile and $0.2025/min w/ $3.75 min


    Uber - $0.6825/mile and $0.2925/minute
    Lyft - $0.6825/mile and $0.2925/minute w/ $3.75 min

    San Louis Obispo

    Uber - $1.545/mile and $0.12/minute
    Lyft - $1.545/mile and $0.12/minute w/ $3.00 min

    Santa Barbara

    Uber - $0.9825/mile and $0.165/minute
    Lyft - $0.9825/mile and $0.165/minute w/ $3.37 min


    Uber - $0.795/mile and $0.1125/minute
    Lyft - $0.795/mile and $0.1125/minute w/ $2.25 min

    Los Angeles

    Uber - $0.60/mile and $0.21/min w/ $2.62 min
    Lyft - $0.795/mile and $0.1275/minute w/ $2.62 min

    OC - Uber/Lyft

    Uber - $0.60/mile and $0.21/min
    Lyft - $0.795/mile and $0.1275/min w/ $2.40 min

    South OC

    Uber - $0.87/mile and $0.1125/min w/ $2.73 min
    Lyft - $0.87/mile and $0.1125/min w/ $2.73 min

    San Diego

    Uber - $0.6525/mile and $0.225/minute w/ $3.00 min
    Lyft - $0.6525/mile and $0.225/minute w/ $3.00 min
    EdwinTheMagnificent likes this.
  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Week 4 of the San Diego capacity factor study yields the following.

    Lyft - 196.2 miles
    Uber - 446.6 miles
    Private - 149.0 miles

    134 of the 1,411 miles placed on my car last week were completed on Monday when Uber and Lyft drivers were on strike so I completed all rides on that day for free. 5 riders did incur a cancellation fee which was slightly to far less than their normal Uber and Lyft charges.

    1,411 miles at 27 mph avg speed equates to 52.5 hours. 1,277.0 miles vs 791.8 paid miles yields a cap factor of 62.0 percent.

    The cumulative includes

    Week 1: 2,043.7 miles traveled vs 1,240.0 paid miles - 24 mph avg speed - 80.5 hours
    Week 2: 2,094.1 miles traveled vs 1,197.4 paid miles - 26 mph avg speed - 77.5 hours
    Week 3: 1,419.0 miles traveled vs 908.2 paid miles - 27 mph avg speed - 52.5 hours
    Week 4: 1,277.0 miles traveled vs 791.8 paid miles - 27 mph avg speed - 52.5 hours

    Cumulative of 6,833.8 miles traveled vs 4,137.4 paid miles equates to a cap factor of 60.5 percent at a non-weighted avg. speed of 26 mph.

    My far north Chicago - IL/WI border cap factor was just 50.5 percent with an average speed of just 22 mph by comparison.

    As you can tell by how fast my miles driven has fallen over the past three weeks alone, I am quickly tiring of working for what I call poverty rates here in San Diego and refuse to drive into North OC or LA at $0.60/mile and $0.21/min unless a friend needs a ride to LAX.

    My Military Base access DBIDS request has been approved. I just have to get over to the Naval Base San Diego Pass and ID in downtown to have my fingerprints and photo taken for the card. I am still working out the TCP License...

  3. jcp123

    jcp123 Caliente!

    Wayne, here's a question for you:

    It seems a lot of hotels and companies are using Über or Lyft in lieu of shuttles. Which makes me wonder, if you're unprepared for it, aren't using your own app, and don't have cash for tip, how douchebaggy does it feel for the drivers? Do you know that it's some corporate account, and are you less likely to take the fare?
    xcel likes this.
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi JCP123:
    We receive these "other" account owner pings/requests all the time and as a driver, can only hope for a cash tip from the actual passenger. No way in hell will the account holders tip us in the app.

    I have been receiving pings from car dealerships, Medical offices, and even Hospitals with third party titles requesting us to take passengers to their homes.

    The good thing is we are usually not a target for a poor rating from someone trying to get a free ride since they are receiving essentially a free ride on the account holders dime.

    jcp123 likes this.
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Stephanie, here is a little case study...

    I hope you do not drive in LA but you may. An LA driver at the LAX queue receives a - "Used to be great unicorn" - 45+ min ping in midsummer to Indio, CA midweek. That is a 145-mile drive and will take 15-minutes to pick up and load plus about 3 hours and 15 minutes to drive through day time traffic out of LA.

    If this driver is in a $18k or more compact with fuel efficiency of 35 mpg, his total cost of ownership is somewhere between $0.35 and $0.40/mile.

    That 145-mile trip is going to provide a deadhead most of if not not all the way home because there is nobody in Indio during mid-summer heading to LA in the 15-minute window you are there dropping off the passenger.

    The round trip consists of 290 miles at $0.375/mile for an actual expense of $108.75.

    From the 3-hour and 15-minute drive you earn ($0.60/mile * 145 miles = $87) + ($0.21/min * 195 minutes = $40.95) for a gross income of $127.95

    Gross ($127 95) minus expenses ($108.75) yields a net income of $19.20. That $19.20 net is for driving 7 hours there and back for $2.74/hour in a used compact car! Are you going to receive a tip?

    If you are driving a used $25k midsize at just 30 mpg, your total cost of ownership (TCO) is more along the lines of $0.45 to $0.50/mile or 290 miles at $0.475/mile for a $137.75 expense. For this unicorn ping, you actually paid $9.80 to Uber or Lyft out of your vehicle expense to drive that passenger out to Indio, CA and you back.

    Are you going to risk your vehicle and time for -$1.40/hour to $2.75/hour and hope you get even a small number of the miles back paid, a nice $35 tip to move you from -$1.40/hour to $2.75/hour to $3.60 to $7.75/hour, or just cancel?

    This is but one scenerio that you do not want to accept every ride.

    Uber and Lyft have made us all fleet managers and I can assure you, there is not a single Fortune 500 company that would hire one of us for that position given our poor fleet management skills.


    BillLin likes this.
  6. jcp123

    jcp123 Caliente!

    Interesting, thanks. I should have thought about the driver rating, considering I admonished my wife for declining to rate the drivers...
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    HI All:

    While I have a lot of catching up to do, I am backing way off my driver hours to consume the 2018 Hyundai Elantra. I am currently at 119,850 miles with just 50k more miles to go as I type this up.

    In Chicago while averaging 70 to 100+ hour weeks, I was earning $0.75/mile and $0.15/min plus surge and $750 to $1,200 per month bonuses which kept the rideshare gig afloat. Once Uber cut Chicago rates to $0.60/mile and $0.21/min as I was leaving last Fall, San Diego was hit soon after I arrived to $0.6525/mile and $0.225/min. The OC and LA were hit yet again from $0.795/mile and $0.18/min to $0.60/mile and $0.21/min just over a month ago. Then Uber stopped offering bonuses for San Diego drivers altogether, went to a fixed or no surge while charging passengers full 1.5 to 4X multipliers, and it is getting really really ugly to justify doing this anymore as I have backed my hours down from 80 to 60 to just 40 and an all-time low for a complete week through the upcoming weekend. I will be heading to the Explorer launch on the 12th and will not complete another rideshare ride until I get back late this month.

    While backing off accepting the majority of Uber and Lyft pings, I used to be > 98 percent when in Chicago, I am either becoming much more selective and taking mainly just 45-minute plus trips, $30+ scheduled rides through Lyft, and Destination Filtering (DF) my way back home. Outside of that, I am completing almost as many private rides at or just below Uber and Lyft rates and receiving the full amount plus decent tips vs what Uber and Lyft charge riders.

    Just this morning I received a second best record tip and best ever total gross revenue amount - outside the $100 Unicorn short ride tip earlier this year - from a 102-mile Vista, CA to LAX request. I charged my std. $1.20/mile for a $122.40 amount to this repeat rider including all the amenities plus my std. Real Time Google Map track from my home to his pickup location so he knew when I would arrive just prior to the 04:30 AM scheduled pickup. As I approached the LAX terminals, I had my PayPal CC Chip reader ready and he said., "Would it be ok if I paid you in cash?" He handed me $180 in $20s. We arrived at LAX some 2-hours and 15-minutes after departing.

    Some detail on how I return from these far out runs but it is by no means fool proof. Many of the longer rides end up with 0 to 3 trash $4 to $5 rides and nothing more. Meaning I rely on my $1.20 per mile rate out to get back home plus $0 to $15 for trash rides on the way back. Every once in a while, rides both ways work out but it is very rare indeed. An example was just last week. I had a private LAX pickup in just 2.5 hours. As I was approaching the "5" - the major N-S interstate here in CA - about a mile from my home, I fired up the Uber DF with LAX as my destination. I received a ping just four to five minutes later and picked up a couple heading to LAX from one city over. My Uber gross earnings for that ride was $89, the couple tipped me $20 in cash, and I arrived with 15-minutes to spare to pick up the private ride. The ride back paid $125 plus a $25 tip for the return. This was indeed a great paying $259 gross unicorn with rides both ways over 5.5-hours of driving covering some 204-miles in total. It netted $209 or $38/hour net after the $50 TCO expense at $0.245/mile while cruising mostly highway between my home in North San Diego County and LAX with car pool lane access both ways. This almost total both ways payment happened only once so it is indeed a very rare unicorn.

    Uber's Destination Filter (DF) is pretty good whereas the multi-billion $ company called Lyft cannot code a DF better than a 9th grader.

    I have also upped my own game for these longer rides with a 10.1" Amazon Fire HD tablet on an angle adjustable holder - I will show more on this addition in a future post as it is pretty damn slick! - mounted off the back of the passenger side headrests which runs Netflix via Wi-Fi from my Galaxy S8+ on the T-Mobile network. I am also offering all long distance riders Pepsi, Coke, and Diet Coke along with the usual 21-bottles of water I carry on-board at all times and 6-different small bags of chips and 2 types of granola bars. I am also offering 100 percent natural oil scents of their choosing - Lemongrass, Citrus, and Eucalyptus - which I carry in sealed bags in the glove box for instant deployment.

    In any case, I am seeing "New" drivers in the private FB rideshare forums posting ridiculous statements about pay and expenses trying to justify the poor net earnings craziness and to a tee, not a single driver of the tens of thousands I have interacted with in these private rideshare forums know their vehicle TCO to within a nickle if at all? Meaning most are driving for far less than minimum wage but are allured by the gross earnings of a single ride and do not even know they may actually be losing money on a given ride, day, or week! When I see midsize sedans and SUVs completing UberX and base Lyft on the road and in the Airport queues, I shake my head knowing that many are trading depreciation, fuel, maintenance and repair, insurance, finance, and consumables EVEN UP up or for a loss to receive gross revenue from a given Uber or Lyft ride.

    Here is yet another new driver in San Francisco from today. I summed up the actuals after numerous posters shared similar sentiments...

    My rebuttal...

    BillLin likes this.
  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    "But Lyft and Uber are a different story. They're not selling a song or a movie that can be endlessly replicated for little incremental cost; they're selling a physical service that's pretty expensive to deliver. At some point, we're going to have to pay for it.

    Heavy users of ride-sharing should start getting used to the idea that the cost will soon go up, and plan their lives accordingly. And investors should prepare for demand to drop when customers and drivers discover the true price of the service.

    In other words, as a modern-day Joseph Kennedy might say: Don't buy frothy stocks unless you're willing to lose a bundle. And don't sell your car unless you're ready to walk."
    Uber and Lyft are losing money. At some point, we'll pay for it.

    Uber and Lyft's IPOs Will Generate Millions -- But For Who?

    /both uber and lyft have recently gone public, ...
    //kind of sounds like uber and Lyft have both been riding on their driver's inability to discern gross from net (and a gross mis-understanding of depreciation) --- now comes the fluff the books, -- pump and dump ...(?)

    ///*edit* -- also, sounds vaguely like "using you house as an ATM" -- remember all that? -- took people a while to figure that one out too.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:
    Exactly! And especially depreciation. It is sad to see so many post one-way "unicorns" and espouse $40 to $50 per hour type rides when in fact they usually deadheaded home and never include the dead time between pings, unpaid pickup times, vehicle cleanup and refueling, restocking consumables - if they offer?, and especially the expenses for any given RT ride, day or week. I am not the brightest bulb in the bucket but there are some downright broken bulbs in this business providing way below minimum wage, free, or actually negative $s rides and they do not even know it. This is a sad state of affairs for so many actually and just one of the many ways many Rideshare drivers are being exploited at per mile rates as little as 1/4 what they were just 4-years ago. :(

    My own pullback in Uber and Lyft rideshare hours I was speaking about above look like this. Of the 45.5 Uber and Lyft hours this week, approximately 8 to 10 are overlap hours - running both apps while looking for pings, private rides and running Destination Filters to keep the deductible miles in check for local grocery, hardware, and fuel runs for example. All-in, about 37.5 hours of time "on the Apps" in-between pings or with paid customers on-board this week.


    Private rides this week accounted for over $465 covering ~ 6-hours with some Uber/Lyft occurring on the way to or from the Private rides pickup or drop-off destinations. All-in, just over $1,165 for ~ 43.5 hours of driving plus another 1.5-hours for vehicle cleaning, restocking, and refueling while not "on the clock". The majority of mostly highway miles covered this week came to 1,250 with a 49.7 mpg indicated or 46.3 mpg actual average. Far better than the 41 to 43 mpg while slugging it out from ping to ping and allowing the apps to control my day/night over twice the amount of hours per week.

    Of that just over $1,165 gross, the 1,250 miles at $0.245/mile all-in expense ($306) netted just $859 over the same 45-hours or $19.08/hour tax free. Tax free and no benefits, protections, or retirement for anyone else doing this "on the side" or FT.

    Remember I am driving the most efficient non-hybrid/non-diesel available - the 2018 Hyundai Elantra ECO - and purchased it for the absolutely lowest price in the country while achieving the highest mpg yields the lowest cost in $/mile of any new or reasonably new car in the rideshare business. By comparison, there are hundreds of thousands of $20 to $30k compact to midsize vehicles pulling far less than 30 mpg with TCOs in the $0.40 to $0.60/mile range! These same drivers here in Southern California are earning $0.60 to $0.65/mile * their mile cap factor (on avg 58 percent) which provides a NEGATIVE $0.10 to $0.25/mile earnings stream on miles. Working off their time rates of $0.115 to $0.285/hour * their time cap factor of 40 percent yields negative earnings for many drivers here. They just do not or are unwilling to understand the actual vehicle costs which leads to worker exploitation while performing rideshare in its present form at these current far below minimum wage "net" rates. :(

    The "job" is actually pretty cool meeting new people and seeing new places on a daily basis while driving all over the darn place. The pay when allowing the apps to run your day or night is positively abysmal. When controlling them, the pay is just barely acceptable imho.

    I do have a Lyft scheduled ride at 05:35 AM on Sunday, tomorrow morning, and will surely pick up another two or three before the night is out while running a script and discarding the trash $3 to $25 rides that make no sense and were picked up in my net after the fact.

    Last night the 2018 Hyundai Elantra Eco breached the 120k mile mark.

    MaxxMPG and BillLin like this.
  10. jcp123

    jcp123 Caliente!

    My truck had a PM due, and as they slotted it in a night shift, I was duly assigned a hotel and a company-paid Über to and fro.

    Happily, I carried cash this time, and tipped both drivers.

    Both were good rides, but I wanted to bring forth my first ride, as it was in an Elantra similar to Wayne’s.

    It’s actually a nice car to ride in. I had plenty of room, and I found the car to be refined in its operation. Ride quality was nice, not much noise, and at least for a ~10 min ride, the seat out back was comfortable. Negs are a strange strip of plastic between the seatback and the door sill. I banged my elbow on it getting in, trying to hand my overnight bag to the other side, not really expecting a hard surface there. It felt, maybe not quite bad, but odd and under-designed. Still, nice job, Hyundai!

    I did steal a glance at her FCD, since she had it up. At around 32, I thought it appropriate for someone who wasn’t a hypermiler. She wasn’t aggressive at all, but certainly carried a sense of urgency for her next ping. 78k on the odo, I thought the car held up well, I was shocked it had that many miles on it, especially if a lot of those miles were ridesharing.
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The 2018 Hyundai Elantra has been performing exquisitely with even higher efficiency and still not a discernible squeak or rattle after 136k miles.

    What has not been kind is the deprecation hit still beating this beautiful rideshare vehicle to a pulp.

    To Date -- 2018 Hyundai Elantra Eco KBB TIV

    136k miles in Fair condition.​

    From years end with 74.4k on its clock to today with 136k miles, a $7,523 USD TIV value vehicle is now down to just $3,694 USD or a total estimated expense of $3,829 USD over the last 61.6k miles for a $0.062/mile depreciation cost.

    Fuel costs here in California have fallen somewhat vs the beginning of the year as I have paid an average of $3.26/gallon with all the discounts I can muster applied from Jan 1 through today. I am now up to a lifetime of 43 mpg or between Jan 1 and Aug 14, I consumed 1,425 gallons at 43.2 mpg and for a cost of $4,645.5 USD or $0.075/mile.

    Minor maintenance and repair: 2 new headlight bulbs for $17, one lost tire after warranty for $50, 1-gallon of wiper fluid for $6, and 5 qts of QS UD Synthetic I use to top off the 1.4L engine after 6k miles for $21.

    2019 Rideshare Vehicle Expenses

    Depreciation: KBB TIV shows a $3,829 hit from used at Jan 1 or $0.062/mi.
    Fuel: $4,645 in fuel at 43.2 mpg and $3.26 per gallon average over 61,600 miles or $0.075/mi
    Insurance: $346 for (8) months of vehicle insurance or $0.006/mi
    Oil Changes: $121 or $0.002/mi
    Tires: Still at ~ $0.004/mi although I may not have to buy a second new set this year?
    Brakes: Rears will probably need replacement before years end so I am adding another $130 over 160k miles or $0.001/mi.
    Minor Maintenance and Repair: $94

    2019 to Date Total Rideshare Vehicle Expense = $9,165

    When changing out the second headlight, my S8+ fell out of my hoodie causing a small crack in the corner. I just picked up a new Galaxy Note 8 as a replacement last week for $329.95 + Hawaii Tax or $345. I am also supplying Netflix ($9/month) to customers through a Kindle HD 10 ($149.95) and velcro headrest tablet wrap mount ($28). The tried and true B&D Li-Ion Hand vac died after 18-months of hard use so I replaced it with another for $64.

    2019 to Date Rideshare Consumable Expenses

    $127 for water
    $95 for packaged snacks (Fritos, Chips, Doritos for AP riders etc.)
    $93 for Granola Bars
    $136 for customer sodas
    $345 for phone + $480 ($60/month) for Service
    $115 in California Tollway charges
    $250 for onboard Netflix
    $64 for B&D Hand Vac

    2019 to Date Total Rideshare Consumable Expense = $1,705

    Total 2019 YTD Rideshare Cost of Ownership ($10,870) -- not including any taxes on Rideshare -- is now down to just $0.176/mile excl. taxes after 61,600 2019 miles through Mid Aug. of 2019.

    The unexpected, untimely transmission or engine repair, accident deductible damage, or other unknown yet to be experienced vehicle electrical or mechanical calamity is as always just ahead of my current location. At least vehicle and equipment costs are now below my target goal of $0.18/mile and down from the last years new $0.206/mile raw vehicle expenses other than the 2019 tax year calculations which will add some expense to the final while deducing a net of course. I hope my luck with reasonable low expenses continues for the foreseeable future.

    After taxes are calculated early next year and with no large unforeseen maintenance and repair bills that are always looming, I am guesstimating the now used 2018 Elantra will provide a $0.24/mile TCO for year 2 here in California - down slightly from the $0.264/mile new car in IL 2018 result - despite the much higher cost of fuel.

    Now time to go freshen up the car for a private LAX run in just 2-hours and a SAN pickup later tonight...

    BillLin likes this.

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