Return of the Honda Insight :)

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] A 5-seat concept with production scheduled for mid-2018. It should provide world beating efficiency thanks to the brands two-motor hybrid system.

    Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – Dec. 19, 2017

    2019 Honda Insight. Can you say YaHoo???!!! :D

    [​IMG]

    The Honda Insight Prototype is scheduled to be shown for the first time at the 2018 North American International Auto Show in Detroit on January 15, 2018. The all-new platform is slated to fit between the Civic and all-new Accord within Honda's passenger car lineup.

    As a previous owner of a red 2000 Insight with the stick, the Insight was and still is a personal favorite vehicle within all my own automotive history. Introduced in 1999, the first-gen was America's first hybrid and a game changer. A PURE engineering exercise to reduce consumption and emissions, it used the most aerodynamic shape and an all-new lightweight aluminum structure. Even today it is still recognized as the most fuel-efficient car ever to be introduced into the U.S.

    [​IMG]

    The second-gen Insight made its debut in 2009 as the most affordable hybrid on the market. With its 5-door, 5-passenger design, the second-gen offered increased space and utility while continuing to employ the IMA single motor hybrid system.

    The all-new 2019 Insight will arrive with the very latest design inside and out, premium features and even more performance. The all-new third gen will incorporate Honda's latest two-motor hybrid system offering fuel economy that is competitive with other compact hybrid models.

    [​IMG]

    Consider the new Insight as what the Civic and Accord could have been. More contemporary and fluid lines with less angular pieces, a lighter weight platform with possibly the Civic’s 1.5L but more heavily atkinsonized mated to the Accord’s hyper efficient two motor hybrid system, and hopefully all the right bells and whistles inside without a price premium to competitors. <-- This last item is still a question mark.

    [​IMG]

    The 2019 Insight will be manufactured right here in the U.S. at Honda's Greensburg, Indiana plant.
     
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  2. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    Considering the market's current 'crossover' fetish, they'd be wise to give it the Kia Niro roofline instead of the current prototype's 2011 Hyundai Azera roof and tail.
    Then stick a badge on the rear liftgate that proudly says: AWD - where AWD is an abbreviation of "A Wheel is Driven" - namely the right front. People are dumb. They'd buy a unicycle that had the AWD badge on it.
     
  3. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Yeah , the Civic SHOULD have been this graceful. Is Honda ready to take on the mighty Prius and Ioniq ?

    And at what price ? I've always loved Hondas and bought a number of new Honda cars and motorcycles.

    They really need something special to get me out of my Prius.
     
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Chris:

    Your posts always provide a smile! :D

    Edwin, when I was posting this I was thinking how this probably fits your less granular styling design ideas and efficiency needs best! Let us hope the all-new 3rd gen Insight is competitive on the pricing front too!

    Wayne
     
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  5. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    It looks good. My main question is what the pricing will be like if it's supposed to fit between the Civic and Accord in the lineup.
     
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  6. Markus

    Markus Active Member

    This makes my short list. I'm thinking a version of the clarity hybrid drivetrain with the 1.5 lite engine is most likely.
     
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  7. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    This car looks amazing, and I really, really want to believe Honda that the mpg on this will be competitive with other compact hybrids. But is it realistic to expect this car to have similar fuel efficiency to the Ioniq and Gen 4 Prius? Or will this new Insight most likely just be a slight mpg improvement over the 2018 Accord hybrid? The last time I checked Fuelly, the best real-world fuel efficiency of the 2017 Accord hybrid was in the high 40's. Meanwhile, there are more than a few Ioniq and Prius owners on Fuelly who have 65+ average mpg. So given that 1.) this new Insight will most likely have either the Accord hybrid or Clarity drivetrain, 2.) it has an Accord-like sedan body (ie: it's not a small hatchback), and 3.) Honda is already talking up its "performance" and interior roominess, could this car really put up Ioniq Blue-level steady state numbers (83 mpg at 50 mph; 60 mpg at 65 mph)? Or will it more likely do about 5 mpg better than the Accord hybrid between 50 and 70 mph?
     
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  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I imagine a low-pressure 1.5 turbo, 140 HP , mated to a DCT. But isn't the DCT expensive compared to a CVT ?

    I keep hoping that Honda will blow my mind , but typically they are rather conservative.
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Chris:

    Just like the release of the third gen 2018 Honda Accord Hybrid being delayed a whole quarter, I am sure they are trying to catch the 18 Camry Hybrids numbers but are missing the target early on. Similarly, I bet Honda wants to stay competitive with or even match the Ioniq and 4th gen Prius but may be behind the curve given their sky-high capabilities. Wild guesses at this point but remember the Accord Hybrid lead the midsize sedan market in efficiency up until the 18 Camry Hybrid was released. It is kind of exciting to see the Insight nameplate again and on a very stylish sedan. Using Honda's very latest Hybrid technology under the hood could mean a segment topping offering with a whole lot of power as well. The 1.5T in the Civic provides a whole lot of ooommmppphhh while still sipping with the best of them. Maybe that will be Honda's focus going forward? Not the best in segment but the best overall car in the segment given the balance of good efficiency and best in segment performance with a segment leading design?

    Edwin, I can almost guarantee Honda will drop the turbo given the expense as the two-motor Hybrid system supply's the boost. DCTs are more expensive than a CVT but with the two-motor system, it is the AT in this Honda HEV/PHEVs. With a 40+ percent thermodynamically efficient 1.5L - maybe? - and the two-motor hybrid system in a lighter weight and smaller frontal area Civic, maybe, just maybe the 3rd gen Insight will live up to the original?

    The chrome DLO in probably this Touring trim is a segment leading design feature while the smooth junction of the upper and beltline trailing edges of the same is much more pleasing to the eye. The more std. sedan profile is probably more acceptable to the public as well. The front and rear overhang proportions in the profile are close to spot on! Up front, the grille work and front fascia lack curb appeal but the rear end with the integrated lip spoiler in the trunk, the larger badging, flatter horizontal trunk face, and chrome lower diffuser are standouts. This is the shape the new Accord should have had but missed imho.

    Great for future Insight buyers!

    Wayne
     
  10. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    I am amazed how big this Insight is - and all car models that have been around for a while. This is far bigger than the original Accord, let alone the Civic, or Insight.
     
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  11. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    I think Honda is on the right track with this one. Larger vehicle does not necessarily equate to inefficient aerodynamics, just look at how the Smart Fortwo does on the highway versus the 2018 Camry. Some earlier discussions in another post talks about the sedan shape versus hatchback/wagon. We all love the wagons, but aerodynamics may/probably favors the sedans of the same basic vehicles. If Honda can keep the weight and cost down (and the fat tires off), this new Insight could be the ideal hybrid we've all been looking for. Decent around the city; excellent on the highway.

    Looks are subjective, but few would call this one ugly. :)
     
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  12. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Hatchbacks like the Prius or earlier Insights?
     
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  13. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    "What do you mean? An African or European swallow?" :D

    Seriously, though, I'm not sure I understand your question or the distinction.
     
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  14. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    If Honda is willing to take a gamble on this sedan (strike one) that's a hybrid (strike two), why not come to the States with the hybrid Fit? The hybrid Fit would have more utility and possibly better economy and would be a better match, I think, for those looking for a hybrid and one less strike because not a sedan.
     
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  15. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    Bill, your point that sedans can be as or more aerodynamic than hatchbacks is an interesting one. Can you say more about that? What specifically needs to be done to a sedan to give it a lower cd than a hatch? I don't know anything about aerodynamics, so I had assumed that in order for a car to have a cd of .24 like the Ioniq and 4th gen Prius, that it pretty much had to be a hatch, and a small one at that. But according to the link below (it's from 2014 and I have no idea how accurate it is), the 2013 Sonata hybrid has a cd of .25, the Tesla Model S is .24, the Mercedes-Benz CLA is .22. And I believe I've read elsewhere that the Tesla Model 3 is .23. So what is it about these sedans that helps them achieve such low cd's? The Tesla 3 looks pretty short front-to-back, but then the Sonata hybrid looks pretty long to me.

    And I think you're right about the 2019 Insight's fat tires....in the pictures, they look like 18-inch Clarity tires. So, given that the Insight's size is somewhere between the Civic and the Accord, what would be the smallest possible tires that could support this frame? 16-inch? Would 15-inch tires be ridiculous/out of the question?

    And Wayne, I think you're right too that with this new Insight, Honda appears to be shooting for "Not the best [mpg] in segment but the best overall car in the segment." This seems to be their strategy with the 10th Gen Civic as well: B+/A- fuel economy, a nice balance of ride, handling, styling, interior space, etc. The question then becomes, though, will the 2019 Insight's real-world mpg be A.) just trailing the Ioniq and 4th Gen Prius by a small amount, or B.) leading the 2018 Accord and 2018 Camry by a small amount? Too early to tell at this point....



    http://motorburn.com/2014/01/12-of-the-most-aerodynamic-cars-in-production-right-now/
     
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  16. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    Low drag coefficient means low resistance to motion through the air. In simplest terms, it takes energy to bend the stream of air around the car. The sharper the bend or the farther it needs to bend, the more energy is used. A sedan can be shaped with a steeper rake in front and rear so the car can be closer to teardrop shape, which is the most streamlined shape. The Prius, Ioniq, Insight, etc are actually patterned on the "Kamm tail", where the car is a teardrop that is cut off sharply at the rear. An old German guy named Wunibald Kamm (imagine how much he got teased in grade school with that name!) found that when you chopped off the rear end of a teardrop, using a sharp trailing edge, the air would break cleanly away and flow as if the remainder of the teardrop shape was there. In effect, you truncate the shape and the air doesn't see much of a difference. Look at the back of these hybrids and you will see sharp trailing edges. That's the proof that they're taking advantage of this neat trick.

    Much of the work on these ultra-low numbers as of late has been done with the wheels and body surfaces around them, and panels they're attaching to the underbody to smooth things out. Hyundai even puts little air deflectors on rear suspension components to reduce turbulence.

    Hatchbacks are more versatile but also have more interior noise - often drumming/resonance in the rear cargo area and noise from the rear wheels, and also are more challenging to design so that the rear axle area has enough stiffness to keep away the squeaks and rattles and allow more precise tuning of ride/handling in the rear. Sedans sell better than hatchback cars (CUV/SUV exempted), so Honda seems to be following the market trend and going with the sedan that will sell better and will be quieter inside, although trying to jam a Christmas tree into it will have you looking like the Grinch trying to jam Cindy Lou Who's tree into the fireplace and up the chimney.
     
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  17. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Apologies for my making a statement without substantiation.
    I need to find that discussion again to see what it really says. I had my own takeaway from it and I should not have advanced it as fact.

    A bit backward now, looking for instances to substantiate an idea which never reached the level of a theory, but here's one data point. If you run more comparisons of cars in sedan vs. hatchback/wagon form, perhaps the data may go the other way. I don't know. Anyway, this one shows the sedan being rated 24/35 city/hwy and the hatchback being rated 25/33. 2016 Kia Forte and Forte 5. I did not find this immediately as some car manufacturers submit identical ratings for sedan and hatchback. e.g. I looked at one sample of Subaru Impreza sedan vs. hatchback. Of course, I matched the engine and transmission as best I could.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=36231&id=36285

    On the Forte, I was thinking there may be other factors at play, such as equipment level and weight, but the lower city number would make the sedan heavier, and yet it gets a better highway rating. So, my thoughts are up in the air again, being swayed by the opinions I value in this little community.

    Chris, thanks for the much better presented theory and history around the present shape of the aerodynamic cars like Prius.
     
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  18. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Super Moderator

    Here's an interesting twist on the original Insight.
     
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  19. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Just because you CAN , doesn't mean you SHOULD.
     
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  20. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    I was merely trying to make the point that properly shaped hatchbacks are not aerodynamicly inferior to otherwise equivalent sedans. The stubby, hacked-off kind of hatchback usually is inferior to sedans of the same model line, but that's not really a fair comparison because the sedan is longer.
     
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