Ford Explorer Police Interceptor Repairs

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] CO repairs caused by Police Interceptor upfitter work announced.

    Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – Aug. 8, 2017


    Ford engineering teams continue working with law enforcement agencies in their communities to address carbon monoxide concerns in some Ford Police Interceptor Utilities.

    From the Ford release.

    Ford has worked side-by-side with more than a dozen police agencies nationwide to inspect and repair more than 50 vehicles in cities and towns, such as Auburn, Massachusetts, and Galveston, Texas.

    While there have been reports of exhaust odors in some non-police Explorers, those instances are unrelated to reports of carbon monoxide described by some police departments. If a vehicle has such an odor, customers should bring it to a Ford dealer to address that issue.

    Ford’s investigation into this matter continues. However, while inspecting police vehicles throughout the country, company engineers consistently have found similar types of holes and unsealed spaces in the back of some Police Interceptor Utilities that had police equipment installed after leaving Ford’s factory.

    When a police or fire department routinely installs customized emergency lighting, radios and other equipment, they have to drill wiring access holes into the rear of the vehicle. If the holes are not properly sealed, it creates openings where exhaust could enter the cabin.

    To address this, Ford will cover the costs of specific repairs in every Police Interceptor Utility that may have this concern, regardless of age, mileage or aftermarket modifications made after purchase.

    As part of this action, Ford will:
    • Check and seal off the rear of the vehicle where exhaust can enter

    • Provide a new air conditioning calibration that brings in more fresh air during heavy acceleration typical of police driving

    • Check for engine codes that could indicate a damaged exhaust manifold
    Ford will continue investigating all reports from its police customers, including the exhaust manifold issue referenced by National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

    If a customer believes exhaust gases are coming inside his or her vehicle, they should bring it to a Ford dealer, who is equipped to assess the vehicle and address the issue. Customers also can call a dedicated hotline at 888-260-5575.
     
  2. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    doh.png
     
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  3. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Cars are so well sealed now-usually
    Are cars supposed to be positively pressured?
    Apparently not?
    You would think that exhaust would be propelled by its own velocity-well outside the rear of the vehicle-obviously not.
    Problem with such good sealing -and the recycling of the air-is once CO gets in-it is in
    Guessing MPG-good mpg- good EPA numbers-require "lots" of recycled-already cooled-air
    rather than bringing in more-HOT-outside air that needs to be cooled
    so I guess MPG EPA is part of the reason it is so essential you NOT poke holes in the car
    especially holes anywhere near the exhaust

    Must say I'm a little surprised there is still so much CO in the exhaust
    I would have guessed the hydrocarbons were so well burned-in CC and by CATCON that it would take "plenty" of exhaust intrusion to poison you?

    Granted CO is awfully "sticky" in respect to hemoglobin(usually described as 150 times as sticky- guessing this means it is a competitive binding-and with high enough O2 it displaces it)


    crude guess car partial pressures
    20mm CO2 we breath out 45mm
    20mmH2O we breath out 47mm
    140mm O2
    580 mm N2
    a little 1mm- CO would go a long way-little more than 1 part per 1000
    morning math probably wrong
     
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Charlie:

    I love your back of the envelope math!!! :)

    The CFR requires some air exchange. I am not sure if it was a percentage or an absolute. 26 cfm comes to mind - that could be way off because I do not remember where or when I saw that - so the OEMs have to leave some openings so the vehicles can breathe.

    I have seen local TV reports where fleet managers are seeing cracks in the exhaust manifolds of 80+ percent of their Explorer Interceptor fleet - pre-CAT - and CO in the engine bay may be coming into the cabin that way?

    Wayne
     
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  5. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Perhaps Ford should come up with a way for the interceptor class vehicles to have their engines warmed and ready without excessive idling? Variation on start-stop tech?
     
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  6. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Fair warning-below is my usual paranoia-distrust-
    I smell AUDI run away cars-tiny holes-THAT much CO??
    A tiny not well plugged wiring hole leak-near exhaust outlet-will mostly suck in AIR pure air-with a tiny bit of post CATCON exhaust(mostly H20 CO2 tiny amounts of CO)


    Below is my usual paranoia-and suspicion-and lawyer mis-trust- and mistrust of LEO and GOV
    I'm paranoid-so I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this is more like the AUDI run away car problem(than the FORD FIRESTONE 26 PSI tire rollover problem) .
    Perhaps these LEOS are actually just falling asleep-long hours-overweight-perhaps opioid problems

    Yeah maybe just maybe there isn't a real CO problem??
    How many LEOS fall asleep-drive off the road??
    My guess is it is a daily occurrence.
    And detecting CO in a car interior-hell ALL CARS have CO in them-
    Yeah I'm suspicious-few tiny holes-mostly filled with wire

    Maybe this is just a made up problem-we are just noticing that LEOS literally fall asleep on the job-
    sitting eating overweight perhaps opioids(they have on the job injuries so they would have gotten opioids-easily get addicted)

    Ford will never point blank suggest LEOS are at fault-but a tiny hole causing CO poisoning???
    CARS 1950'S 1960'S no CATCONS and not well sealed at all
    How many people claimed CO poisoning back when
    Exhaust 1960's was horrible toxic stuff-cars-poorly sealed-hell common to smell exhaust
    But TINY holes-mostly plugged with WIRE-
    I suspect there ISN'T a CO problem in LEO cars
    it is a overweight LEO sitting 8 hrs/d perhaps taking opiates-falling asleep-nodding as the dopers say


    Maybe it is CO-but if that is so then how come classic cars aren't killing their owners-and why weren't we dropping like flies back when??
    That exhaust-LOTS of CO
    CAT CON exhaust much less lethal

    I'm paranoid-
    maybe it is a leak-exhaust manifold leak in engine bay like WAYNE says -that exhaust-has more CO in it(but it should smell-be obvious)
    But plenty of civilians should be affected
    And if 100 opiate OD deaths per day- 1,000,000 opiate addicts-
    should be 1000's of LEO addicts-they would have injuries-so at risk to get addicted
    Yeah CO from tiny wire holes-hard to buy
     
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  7. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    LEOS are at risk for opiate addiction
    White
    male
    lots of on job injuries requiring pain relief
    and plenty of pressure to get back to work
    They-LEOS-many obviously use PEDS-and most PEDS are controlled drugs
    No reason to think LEOS aren't having opiate problems
    NODDING OFF-???
    suddenly cars developing CO problems??
    My paranoid guess-opiates more likely than CO
    nothing new about CO in cars-and exhaust is lower in CO than it was years ago
    besides smokers have PLENTY of CO in their blood
    I would love to see the blood levels of CO in these LEOS-and the opiate levels

    If a citizen drove off the road-
    the assumption would be
    1)impaired alcohol opiates weed
    2)distracted texting
    not "he must have a tiny hole in his car"-

    This smells like the AUDI run away car "problem"
    actually oldsters hitting the wrong pedal
    (nothing new about that-but it was good copy-evil German car-)
    This smells like drivers impaired by the common causes of driver impairment-drugs alcohol or texting
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  8. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    We need electric police vehicles, or plugin hybrids - they don't need to idle.
     
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  9. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Time will tell, if we see the "problem" still exists after the "fix".

    That's because the classic car exhaust kills the people driving BEHIND them. :D
     
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  10. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Like I said -I'm a bit paranoid/suspicious by nature.

    But there are maybe 200,000 of these 2015 on explorers in service
    But the "problem" is mostly reported bt one "group"
    Just like thr Audi problem
    Audi-in very short order-noticed that the "problem" was reported by ONE distinct group-OLDSTERS
    So in short order Audi KNEW it wasn't primarily their car-
    Now why in the world would this problem be concentrated in ONE group-LEOs
    Well you might buy the "exhaust is being let in from these TINY holes that are being drilled"
    or you might look more closely at that group

    What usually happens when a driver-after a wreck- says "I felt dizzy and passed out"
    Right-the driver gets CO tested
    No he she gets drug alcohol tested and they get a reckless driving ticket no matter the result
    No they NEVER get CO tested.
    Now some slick LEO wrecked his/her car-and the buddies decided to CO test him/her
    now everyone has CO in their blood-smokers have 20 parts/million-
    It worked once-so the LEOs-and their lawyers are now milking a good thing.
    LEOs-hard job-most want out of it-
    The LEO in LA and at least one in Austin-already suing FORD etc.

    It is BS- Cops get in wrecks-plenty of distracted driving-and probably at least average opiate use

    They -many-want out of their jobs(easy to see why)

    Notice no actual NUMBERS -parts per million CO in blood-or percentage of hemoglobin CO bound
    Lots of SCIENCE TYPES CLAIMS-but NO NUMBERS-
    Yeah no numbers means their numbers are "no good" not convincing
    Any science type claim-with no numbers-is BS-
    If they actually had near lethal CO numbers-they would post them
    They haven't which means they don't have the numbers!!

    Yeah you crash your car-claim you were dizzy-bet you don't get a CO test-
    just old boys LEOs get that-a smoker LEO stumbled on it-ran with it
    And notice it is localized to "some depts" safe bet those depts aren't plumbing exhaust into their cars

    This is a lawyer cop driven scam.
    I feel a little sorry for FORD-they can't very well say "leos are scammers who want out "


    OK I might be wrong-but CO poisoning-after a crash-only a cop would get that sort of preferential treatment-
    and 20-40 parts per million-in blood-normal in smokers-
    so where are their numbers???
     
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  11. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    That would make more sense. A little under-hood air likely comes in through the HVAC system, even if there are no unintended holes in the body. Do these things feature post-converter exhaust leaks, too? There seems to be some confusion about that issue.
     
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  12. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    But why are cop cars waaaay over represented?
    There must be 100,000's of Explorers in service?
    And why is this the FIRST time we have ever heard of "in service" cars poisoning occupants?
    Heck 1950's 1960's cars-SPREWED CO-they burned much less efficiently-
    had no real way to closely properly match fuel to load or to O2-
    Suddenly some LEOs-concentrated at specific depts(also odd) are reporting CO poisoning
    after WRECKS-that would get civilians ticketed and alcohol drug tested.
    I don't buy the tiny wire holes not properly sealed-the vast majority of that gas would be air-and "most exhaust" is N2 CO2 H2O- tiny amounts of CO

    It is possible LEOs are the canaries in the mine-
    but my paranoid take-until some blood CO numbers are posted-(and they had better be much higher than normal smoker 20-40 ppm)
    well my take is these are "normally expected LEO crashes" perhaps distracted driving perhaps opiate assisted
    Why in heck did they decided to CO test??
    Is that NORMAL when someone single vehicle wrecks their car(of course not)
    This smells like the AUDI episode from 30 years ago-one group reporting a problem-news folks piling on
    manufacturer not able to say "it is our oldster buyers"
    or in FORDS case "cops need to quick playing with electronics-and don't drive impaired"
    Ford can't blame their customers-but I can
    and it is ODD that this comes up in 2017-when cars from not many years ago were absolutely SPEWING CO

    Show me the NUMBERS- meaning blood CO numbers-
    and one cop-claims BRAIN DAMAGE from CO poisoning that didn't even knock him out-
    Pure unadulterated BS-looking to quit his tough job-get a payout(understandable-but not Ford's problem)
    This has an AUDI feel-not the FORD FIRESTONE ROLLOVER 26 PSI tire feel(26 psi big tall vehicle-bad idea)
     
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  13. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    In respect the the LEO-rural Louisiana-rolled her SUV april 2017
    her medical records "say" CO poisoning
    but FEDS with access to these records -last month say "no real evidence of CO causing wrecks"
    and her records do indicate she is taking some prescribed medications
    didn't say what-my guess-since she is overweight
    probably a BP med or two-maybe a DM meds or two
    both common causes of "lightheaded"
    Oh no mention of the prisoner-having any CO problem at all
    he/she was sitting in the back-nearer any half ass plugged wire "hole"
    so why -with AC blasting-was the prisoner unaffected??
    My mean spirited guess-NOT CO poisoning-
    it would have been OBVIOUS to MDs test the prisoner also-
     
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  14. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Okay, Charlie, you've convinced me. :)
     
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  15. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Billlin-MASS(I have relatives in Fall River-funny I live in a suburb of New Orleans-been through exposed to several bad hurricanes)
    But the FIRST hurricane I was in was in Fall River -late Aug early Sept 1954-1955-maybe 1956-
    who would have thought the NE would have miserable North Eastern storms-and HURRICANES-and snow-lucky you.
    Fall River was a beaten down old textile mill town back then(I still have a fall river wool sweater)

    Anyway I'm not convinced that this isn't a CO problem
    but having a single group way over represented-a group that has all the reason in the world to say
    "The wreck wasn't may fault"
    and not car owners-owned and sold by DEEP POCKETS-
    Why are COP owned SUVs doing this-
    instead of say 10 -15 year old Suburbans(those barn door leak)
    Cops distracted drive all the time-literally ALL the time
    and safe bet a fair number are on meds/drugs that can make you "lightheaded"
    A civilian with the same story-won't got CO tested-alcohol and drugs-not CO

    It just reminds me of the AUDI case-lawyer driven pure BS
    All the drivers from one group-oldsters
    In this case all the drivers COPS who have every reason in the world to not take the blame
    and in many cases-understandably-HATE their jobs

    Maybe it is CO-but those little holes?? with the FEDS saying "no real evidence"
    and the FEDS will have seen actual numbers- interior CO any blood CO levels??

    Ford certainly can't say "our heroic first responders have to drive more carefully-this is all their fault"

    I will follow this-but my suspicion is there won't be a satisfactory answer
    LEOs have been casually punching holes in their vehicles-for 100 years
    and cars have been reasonably well sealed(for noise and climate control) for 40 years
    why are LEOs suddenly getting CO poisoning from a modern car that very completely combusts its fuel-and they burns it even more throughly in the CATCON?
    and leak that lets in exhaust gas will let in MUCH MORE air-
    20% of air is O2-granted CO is 150 times "stickier" to hemoglobin-than O2-so it is plenty toxic
    but why now-and why mostly LEOs??
    Yes LEOs spend 10-12 hours in cars-so if there is a leak...
    but I don't picture it happening from post CAT CON exhaust-
    the exhaust manifold-better bet-if the intake is very near the leak-
    but that should be easy to demonstrate-
    run engine-turn on AC-close windows-monitor CO levels-
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  16. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    "
    In general over 100 ppm in air will cause problems in a couple of hours(headache "feel bad") and 400-800ppm "bad problems"
    Now this guy(didn't show up) says cars in good shape-put out 300 ppm in post CATCON exhaust
    So I can't see anyway that holes near the exhaust pipe-will get you 100 ppm in a car-since MOST of the gas brought in will be clean air(well highway clean air)
    My guess-those exhaust manifold leaks are the problem
    Probably did poison some LEOS-
    THEN the lawyers smelled $$-and LEOS unhappy with their job-who happened to crash their SUV(which is common-distracted driving huge problem cops and civilians)
    piled on
    Not like anyone who crashes their car-their fault-is interested in saying"duh I was playing with the computer-phone radio"
    Yeah a case or two happened-then EVERY LEO who wrecked his/her car-piled on "me too"


    Claim-some guy online-poison expert?? says modern cars-after warm up 300 ppm
    Before warm up 10,000 PPM or more-first 30-90 seconds
     
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  17. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Changing my tune-apparently there are reports in passenger Explorers
    My guess -now-is -maybe there were a few LEO crashes caused by CO-
    Then the inevitable LAWYER piling on happened-and EVERY LEO crash-was/is blamed on CO-
    My guess is there are PLENTY for normal LEO caused crashes-they drive distracted-heck it is their job to look around-away from the road-so of course they crash
    and the various electronics-computers radios phones- make it worse
    Here are some numbers-Iowa State or maybe Iowa U- in any case-reliable stuff- over 100 ppm in air-problem
    LEOs commonly crash for the same reasons we crash-but their job-means they SHOULD have a higher crash rate(but now with some many texting drivers-maybe not)

    How does carbon monoxide from vehicles affect the air we breath? Before catalytic converters, a 1973 medical study found that a 90-minute ride on a Los Angeles freeway produced EKG irregularities in 40% of patients with preexisting cardiovascular disease. Expressway CO levels approached 25-100 ppm. The EPA emission standards have reduced the amount of carbon monoxide produced by over 95%. Still, a single vehicle emitting high concentrations of CO can leave a plume (cloud) of carbon monoxide. Following the dirty vehicle and driving in the plume can cause health problems for some people. Iowa does not require state emission checks and it’s common to encounter individual vehicles emitting excessive amounts of CO.

    Why are defective exhaust systems so dangerous? Internal combustion gasoline engines produce extremely high carbon monoxide concentrations. Even a properly tuned gasoline engine, will produce more than 30,000 parts per million (ppm) of CO in the exhaust stream before the catalytic converter. An exhaust leak can allow escape of CO before it is converted to non-toxic CO2 in the catalytic converter. The CO leaking from the exhaust system can enter the vehicle through holes in the body or open windows or doors. Exhaust systems must be gas tight from the engine to the end of the tailpipe.

    How does the catalytic converter reduce the risks of CO poisoning? The typical catalytic converter found on most newer cars and trucks combines oxygen with carbon monoxide to form non-poisonous carbon dioxide (CO2) reducing the high concentrations in the exhaust manifold (typically 30,000 ppm or more) to low concentrations (typically below 1,000 ppm after the catalytic converter). Tailpipe concentrations of carbon monoxide in gasoline engines without catalytic converters are typically from 30,000 to over 100,000 ppm, depending on the condition of the engine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  18. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Yeah-a leak at the exhaust manifold-high CO levels-before CATCON-that would do the trick-especially since it is near the usual air intake-just under windshield
    I'm changing my tune-probably were/are some CO LEO wrecks-
    but then $$ and lawyers-turn EVERY LEO crash into CO crash
    But this must have been much more common 1950's 1960's PRE CATCONs carburetors-not real controls-no O2 sensors-no EFI electronic ignition-computer controlled fuel injection based on O2 levels
    LEOs must have been dropping like flies back then(even though the cars were leaky(admitting good air too)
    apparently LA freeways had 100 ppm CO(toxic level) back 1950's 1960's(Wayne your timing-to CA- was good)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  19. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    I can imagine "rough duty" causing damage to exhaust systems. Think of cars plowing through highway medians with or without a semi-paved turnaround. (tall brush or saplings could do a job) Or running over curbs and other high speed maneuvers in the course of a chase.

    Good point wondering why this hasn't happened more in the past. As usual, I think it is greater amounts of reporting happening today vs. yesteryear. Same thing with various crime statistics. More reporting today.

    Am I sounding like Charlie yet? :)
     
  20. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Ha,ha
    Hey I could -Trilateral commission-black helicopter blue Helmet Elders of Zion Freemason you guys

    Odd that this has suddenly become an issue.
    Cops have been drilling holes in their vehicles forever-
    Pre-CATCON vehicles-putting out 30,000 ppm-100,000ppm
    folks -cops-should have been dropping like flies
    IF a few tiny holes near the exhaust is now dropping folks ??Exhaust which just isn't anyway near as toxic ??
    The exhaust manifold leak-near air intake-seems more likely

    A few probably are CO wrecks-the rest are just goof up distracted crashes with lawyer $$ motives(and gettin out from under a screw up)
     
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