3500 meter sniper shot-?? dis-information

Discussion in 'Sports' started by phoebeisis, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Anyone notice the articles
    claim a canadian sniper made a 2.2 MILE 3500 meter shot?
    Some articles claimed shot traveled for 10 seconds
    that is unlikely-maybe 7 seconds-500m/s average with muzzle velocity 850m/s maybe

    Anyway despite the claims of VERIFIED
    Pretty sure this is just disinformation to scare ISIS

    All the BS about computer calculations blah blah-
    BS because
    1)they DON'T know actual muzzle velocity-it would always be a range-perhaps 10 fps either direction
    2)Same story on the various winds-no way of getting an extremely EXACT number
    3)same story updrafts downdrafts

    And my quick calculations indicate-at 7 second flight
    the downward velocity at target point might be about 50-70m/s
    so a 10 fps low Muzzle velocity-over 7 seconds-70 feet short of target
    velocity might be as low as 700 fps then-
    so an extra 1/10 of second-means it would drop another 5 meters-16 feet-

    Just not possible to make such a shot-with just 3-4 ranging shots(dirty barrel-hotter barrel-all changing MV)
    SAME story for wind-winds

    7 second time of flight is just too much time for gravity and wind to act on it

    You need s 5000 fps MV and a dense-uranium tungsten spike
    like our 120mm tank round
    But sabot rounds in smaller-.5 INCH calibers aren't as consistent as they are in Bigger diameter cannons
    sabot won't release as cleanly with smaller diameters

    Anyway we-USA-CANADA are lying-
    smart of course-the lie is as effective as actually doing it
    and a HELL OF A LOT EASIER
    Charlie
     
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Charlie:

    I saw a reenactment of a 1.7+ mile Canadian shot from a few years back and they even had the shooter on camera. The Canadian rounds were a bit weak and he ran out earlier that day. The team "borrowed" much hotter American rounds which gave a higher muzzle Velocity and enough reach out and tag one of the Taliban from that incredible distance. Shoot enough 50 cal and I am sure you can hit something from that distance but damn!

    Wayne
     
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  3. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    3500 meters is MI Abrams Tank range not sniper rifle range even if he was using a fifty caliber. First of all can you see a man size target even with a 25 power scope at two miles?

    I agree something not kosher about that story.

    The effective range of a .50 BMG is around 1800 meters. For accuracy you must hit the target while the bullet stays above supersonic. That point is around 1800 meters. So I would put the maximum effective range that you could hit a target (Man) at the most 2000 meters, and past that point it would be incredible skill or dumb luck.

    3500 meter (3828 yards) is an almost impossible shot.

    You would have a point of aim 12,000 inches (1,000 ft) above the target and bullet rotation would be push the bullet about 19 inches to the right.
    There isn't a scope and base combination that would let you adjust your 1/4 click MOA scope up 300 clicks or 1000 ft above your target even at 3828 yards out.
    Even under perfect conditions, no wind, perfect weather, no effect from the earths rotation, direction of the shot N,S,E,W, altitude, temperature, bullet rotation, figured into the equation. All those factors must be figured into the equation before you squeezed the trigger.

    The bullet would drop roughly the height of the Eiffel Tower in Paris from the muzzle to the target and take 9.4 seconds to get there.

    The bullet at 3828 yards would still be lethal at 790 ft per second. At around 2000 yards the bullet would enter subsonic conditions and the accuracy would fall off quickly as the speed bled off the farther the bullet traveled past that point.

    I'm with you Charlie this is a propaganda piece to mess with someones head.
    Edit:
    Hi Wayne,
    I saw that video and that gun was set up for that one shot. That is a lot different than a military sniper and his spotter estimating the range and figuring out all the environmental variables on a mountain in Afghanistan.

    The 1.7 mile shot is doable since the bullet drop is only 333 ft, the speed is still respectable at 950 ft per sec and only 5.5 seconds to the target.

    As an example, many of the members with a few weeks of training could drive a Nascar Grand National race car at 190 mph at Daytona or Talladegga. I bet no more than maybe one could do it with 42 other cars running nose to tail, two feet off their door at 190 mph.

    For $800 you can go down to Academi in Moyock NC and they'll have you hitting a man size target at 1,000 yards with in two or three days. It's easy when you're on a known distance range and the weather is cooperating. It is a whole different situation when your sitting on the side of a mountain shooting at a target 1000, 1500, 2000 yards away. It looks easy on TV, it is in no way that easy. Lots of training taking up hundreds of hours of your time and thousands of rounds fired to get the experience and knowledge to make those shots.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Al:

    I am not sure if the Canadian team did or did not reach out 2.2 miles. The 1.7 mi shot was verified and I watched the story interviewing the team that did it. Whatever the power of the scope, the shooter said he was up 4 and leading by 4 dots. That may have been the scopes limits. I also thought it was a downhill shot and they were at altitude? I do not remember all the details other than the distance and the team saying they used U.S. rounds. They were more powerful than the Canadian rounds.

    I think the previous sniper kill before that was an American in Vietnam at 1.5 miles. I do not think the Vietnam guys had the precision 50 cal weapons to pull this off back then so it was probably more amazing.

    While I know little about the weapons, I do have a morbid curiosity regarding these crazy long distances.

    Wayne
     
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  5. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Al- I'm with you-no way this 3500 meter shot happened
    I would bet it could not be duplicated on a range-with perfect conditions

    Al-so 9.4 second time of flight is a better number-yeah 1000 freakin foot of relative drop-and with the longer time in flight-
    It struck me as impossible with"just 7 second -400 ft drop-time in flight"

    Wayne-I'm a bit of a gun nut-not a hunter-never was-animal liker-but guns -weapons-ships tanks missiles planes cars fascinate me
    Now Al he is a much bigger rifle nut
    (I did once have a 300 Weatherby- 4100 fps 130 grain bullet-original Southgate CA on some sort of Mauser type action-nice wood)


    But this bullet- 2900 fps- is too slow- it is part of the WHY behind why we use 5000 fps tank rounds so we can shoot kill tanks at 2-3 miles
    The tank round-uranium spike 2X the density of lead-holds that velocity-tiny cross section too
    Crude guess is you would need the projectile to weigh maybe 250 grains-with a 200 grain 25 cal uranium spike in it 50 cal BMG
    to get 5000 fps MV
    but betting sabot projectile that small-won't release clean enough to give repeatable accuracy/precision
    Safe bet Sabot 50BMG have been tried-


    Long range shooting-has been done for 100's years
    My dad told me he used to watch-1925 or so
    German immigrants shooting SHOOT-ZEN-GUNS in a park
    Skull-Kill(sic) park in Phillidelphia(sic)
    Al that is in your neck of the woods-PENN-germans LOVED long range shooting
    Apparently they had little screw type RAMMERS to precisely insert their long lead bullets
    Yeah right in the city I guess-safe bet they had huge berns backstops-Germans clever folks- usually too clever by half
    They would have had all the basic arithmetic at their fingertips-not sure of the ranges-maybe 500 meters
    peep and optical sights I guess

    I'm with Al-this is to scare the ISIS guys-
    Wayne-like Al says-this shot can't be done with a 9.5 second time in flight-impossible
    every variable-which LITERALLY are variables strictly GUESSES with wide range

    Wayne yes it is fascinating-just like those WW2 war planes-ignoring the morbid aspects-really interesting stuff

    And the Easiest way to make a 3500 meter shot is to
    LIE
    Just like it is the easiest way to get 100 mpg-LIE(hmmm-you can actually DO 100 mpg-so maybe... gotta change that )
     
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  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Charlie:

    I love reading your commentary because you are not afraid to tell it like you see it. :)

    I am going to take both yours and Al's discussion on this as being the facts on this.

    Since it was Afghanistan, the shooters may have been over 8,000' ASL. The lower air density has got to improve downrange velocity immensely, right?

    Wayne
     
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  7. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Altitude and temperature are variables that do affect the performance of the bullet.

    I'll just use the variables of temperature and altitude for a 175gn .308 round with a muzzle velocity of 2600 ft per sec.
    In comparison to a 707 gn .50 BMG with at muzzle velocity of 2910 feet per sec.

    At 1000 yards for every 10 degrees of temperature change the bullet will drop or rise 1 inch.

    Lets say your gun is zeroed at 1000 yards at 60 degrees. If the temperature is now 35 degrees the bullet will hit 2.5 inches low. The same if the temperature is 85 degrees the bullet would hit 2.5 inches high. With altitude it changes by one inch per 1000 ft at 1000 yards. With If the gun was zeroed at sea level at Camp Lejeune NC. which is close to sea level. Then you put that sniper and their weapon at 8,000 ft up a mountain in Afghanistan, ignoring temperature that bullet would hit eight inches high at 1000 yards.

    The gun is zeroed at 1000 yards at Camp Lejeune and it's 75 degrees out at the time.

    Your target is 1000 yards out from you, you're at 7000 ft and it's 40 degrees on a mountain in Afghanistan.
    At 7000 feet the altitude adjustment would show you'd be hitting 7 inches high.
    It is 35 degrees cooler so the bullet would hit roughly 3.5 inches lower.

    Between the two with no adjustments to the scope the bullet would hit 3.5 inches high.

    If the target was five hundred yards out the you'd see the bullet hitting 3.5 inches high for altitude, 1/2 the 7 inches at 1000 yards. Then for temperature you'd figure in a bullet drop of 1.75 inches lower, 1/2 the 3.5 inch difference at 1000 yards for the change in temperature. With no adjustments to the scope the bullet would hit 1.75 inches high.

    The reason for the temperature change is the powder burns hotter and faster when the case and power are at a higher temperature and powder burns slower at lower temperatures. Altitude is due to air density higher the altitude the thinner the air.
     
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  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Al:

    Great detail! Given it was probably in the 60s at altitude of between 6 and 8k ft. ASL in mid-day, what kind of drop do you think would occur at 2.2 miles out with one of these super .50 cal rounds? I know the Canadian team that had the 1.7 mile shot w/ the hot American rounds a few years back talked about setting the magazine on the sun next to them so the rounds would be warmer and faster burning for a bit more reach before they took their three spotting rounds (IIRC?) and one kill shot.

    Wayne
     
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  9. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Hi Wayne

    You'll notice the link shows a 750gn bullet vs 710 gn that I input as the bullet weight. That is because the Military uses a 710 grain bullet for their Sniper round.

    Here is the link for the ballistic calculator results for the altitude of sea level. Which shows a bullet drop of 719 ft at 3820 yards or 3500 meters

    http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=a298dd14

    Here is the link for the ballistic calculator results for and altitude of 7000 ft. Which shows a bullet drop of 539 Ft at the same 3820 yards and 3500 meters.
    There was a reduction of 180 ft due to the altitude and lower air density. If I knew the angle of the shot up or down that would also be critical to the calculations.

    http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=91e5cdac

    Snipers keep a data book of every shot they take, and it becomes their reference bible of the effects of weather on the trajectory of the round.
    They have a different book on every gun they shoot. If the gun gets transferred to another soldier the book goes with it.

    Al
     
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  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Al:

    Thanks for that. So even at altitude the round will drop 500+ ft. That is one hell of a lob shot! :)

    Wayne
     
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  11. bestmapman

    bestmapman Fighting untruth and misinformation

    That was Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock. I met him in 1977 when I was going to OCS in Quantico, VA. He was a marksmanship instructor.
     
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  12. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Al-great stuff-thanks
    Slight aside-is anyone trying to sabot the 50cal to get 5000 fps-making this sort of shot plausible-using a very dense long .20-25 bullet/spike
    maybe even smoothbore it-
    Guessing it isn't practical to go bigger than 50bmg

    Wayne-my guess is this is a LIE-
    just one more thing the ISIS guys have to worry about
    In theory being in say-a crowded marketplace-MIGHT give the ISIS folks some protection from a drone/hellfire missile
    Yeah like Al says- and you suggest-
    altitude is great for long range shooting-holds velocity much better-that Afghan shot-at altitude(I saw the series that reviewed that shot-crazy that the afghans didn't get behind cover-wait until dark-I sure as hell would have

    Just like my 1998 suburban between Amarillo and Flagstaff- 1 mpg better than sea level
    In the old carburetor days-altitude change killed mpg-now 4000 ft worth maybe 5% vs sea level in the suburban
    Amarillo is maybe 2000 ft Flagstaff maybe 7000-but gently climb mostly over 600 miles -so great mpg
    It was a pleasant surprise(and I think we also had prevailing wind-from W in summer I think-that slightly helped mpg also-but downhill so little tricky)

    Of course at 2.2 MILES-crowded market-shot like that is really likely to hit someone else
    and even at that range-heavy bullet heavy jacket like that-might go through and through-more than one person-
    even at 800 fps-it still has 3x the energy of an old fashioned 45acp-and it is pointed-3x the mass/weight

    Yeah perhaps it is to scare them-showing we can get them in crowds-
    In any case-it is a lie-but a good lie


    Heck 2.2 miles-why not paint him with a laser-fly a small guided rocket into his vicinity-BOOM-
    or forget the explosive-just spear him with it
    put a little rocket booster on camera equipped arrow/bolt
    or a laser guidance sensor on same

    If you can range finder him with a laser-you can certainly paint him with it-
    could be a lot higher hit probability than a 2.2 mile shot-with all but ZERO hit probability
     
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  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    HI Charlie:

    I suspect smart, self guiding bullets have been designed, constructed, and tested. Not get near and blow up but self contained, fire and forget hunting bullets. I doubt this shot had anything to do with that but the future of warfare is going to get smarter and uglier.

    Wayne
     
  14. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 Pip and 2017 Prime

    My thoughts exactly!

    Here's another thought experiment. What if you're on a platform directly overhead, 3 miles up. Can you shoot directly downward with fair accuracy, assuming you can account for wind? :)
     
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  15. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Billlin mass-
    Oh-yeah-directly down no wind-much easier -literally don't have to account for drop
    of course your optical sight-will be off-waaay off if you sighted at any usual range
    you would want your optics parallel with the bore-the bore iss always pointed a little upward and you have 2 zeros-one on the way up-one on the way down-
    with normal rifles-say 200 meter zero-it crosses-lines up with the bulls eye on the way up(scope bore is maybe 1.5" above rifle bore) at 70-80 meters
    and is on the way down when it hits dead center at 200 meters.
    so you could say it was zeroed at 2 ranges

    Now that is only when the target-human-is at the same elevation as the rifle
    The target on the 3550 meter shot-was probably below the shooter since the shooter was described as being on a high rise building-

    Crude intuitive guess-but if shooter and target were same elevation
    then that shot must have climbed to perhaps 300 feet or more-
    seems my ancient HS physics-
    total up down elevation change would have to be the same
    so 10 seconds-assuming constant acceleration 10m/s/s the vertical velocity would have changed 100m/s over the 3500 meter trip
    so it might have been plus 50m/s at the muzzle-and -50m/s at impact
    crude guess is 50m/s start to 0m/s at peak-so 25m/s average over 5 seconds-125 meter peak-about 400feet
    so guessing it peaked at at least 400 feet-
    This is wrong of course since it assumes no drag-
    and shooting upward-you lose upward velocity from air drag and gravity drag

    anyway no freakin way they made that shot-and why bother


    Hunting bullets-already are fire and forget-miss most of the time of course
    Oh-fire and forget bullets-the hellfire is fire and forget-perhaps it laser paints the target itself-after teaching itself what sort of return it is supposed to get-
    GPS bombs are fire and forget-
    Now would you really want to be hunting with 99% hit bullets
    if Dick Cheney was your hunting partner?
    "He looked like a dove"
    Good thing it was just bird shot!
    You really should lose your right to have firearms if you accidentally shoot your hunting partner-
    Now if you intentionally shoot something/someone-well at least that indicates some competence
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2017
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  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jud:

    That must have been cool to meet him!

    Wayne
     
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  17. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    The Hathcock shot was made with a scoped M2 fifty caliber. The poor slob made the mistake of coming through their KNOWN DISTANCE range towards the base. Known Distance = Practice range. In other words Carlos knew the hold overs at each marked off distance from his guns position. He just put it on semi automatic and squeezed off one shot.
     
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  18. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Welcome to GunsAndAmmo.com
     
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  19. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Wow
    Poor guy -no one in the world would expect to be shot-during VN war-at that range
    Unfortunately he literally was on a range-
    Edwin-yeah went sideways-but 3500 meters-pure BS with e 2800 fps 10 second flight time bullet-especially over a built over area with funny updrafts swirling winds -not a nice consistent open grass field
     
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