Honda’s ‘Electric Vision’: 2/3 of European Sales Will be electrified by 2025

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] No mention of the brands super diesel.

    [​IMG]Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – Mar. 7, 2017

    2017 Honda Clarity FCV highlighted in Geneva.

    At the Geneva Auto Show earlier this month, Honda laid out its 8-year plan entitled ‘Electric Vision’. Within this presentation, the Honda European President described the brands road map to have electrified powertrains in two thirds of European cars sold by 2025.

    Honda’s focus on electrification in Europe will initially be driven by a roll-out of hybrid technology across its automobile range. The first new hybrid model, which will feature Honda’s two-motor hybrid system, will go on sale in 2018.

    Honda will design and offer a full range of models including PHEVs, BEVs and H2 FC vehicles to European customers.

    The announcement of the electric vehicle strategy for Europe comes just weeks after Honda was confirmed as the fastest growing mainstream car brand in the EU in 2016. The full-year data from European industry body ACEA shows that total sales for Honda in EU and EFTA countries in 2016 were 159,126 vehicles through December of 2016, up 20.8 percent compared to same period in 2015. Honda’s growth significantly outpaced the results for the EU passenger car market as a whole, which saw a year-on-year increase of 6.8 percent.

    2017 Honda Civic Hatch

    [​IMG]

    There was no mention of the brands best-in-class, award winning and Guinness World Record holding lightweight 118 hp and 221 lb-ft. of torque 1.6L i-DTEC turbo diesel although it will surely be part of the other one-third of the lineup.
     
    BillLin likes this.
  2. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    This seems kind of crazy .. or overambitious at least. I mean, they're talking sales, not just model offerings. What percentage of Honda's European sales do hybrids make up today ... 5%? They're going to jump to 66% in 8 years?
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  3. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Given the high cost of gasoline and diesel in Europe, it isn't that big a stretch that they're more receptive to hybrids and even EVs. A few standouts like Sweden have ridiculously high adoption rates already for plug-ins of all types. We, the USA, just stupidly do anything to keep gasoline costs low enough so we don't feel bad idling needlessly. :D ... and buy light duty trucks for general transportation.
     
    xcel likes this.
  4. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Land of the Free , Home of the Stupid. We are free to buy the stupidest vehicles you can imagine.
     
    xcel likes this.
  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    We (the U.S.) have only had 5 years of 'high' gas prices (inflation adjusted noticeably over $3.00) in our 98 year mainstream automobile history (since 1920). So the stupid is somewhat understandable.

    Swedish income tax runs at something like 70% (in addition to the ridiculously high fuel tax). NO, thanks.
     
    BillLin likes this.
  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Back on topic, ..

    One year ago the new Honda CEO announced a big change in that 2/3 of their worldwide lineup would be 'electrified' by 2030. I kind of dismissed that at the time, but now it's looking like they're serious. Kind of turns the "piston engine company that also makes cars" into a whole new company.

    So, if you were looking for a "car 2.0" longterm stock to invest in and had to pick between Tesla and Honda, which would you pick?
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  7. dr61

    dr61 Well-Known Member

    Actually Swedish income taxes are progressive - top marginal tax rate above about $88K US is about 57%; most have income below that with average marginal rate of 31%.
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    My bad,

    I should have just said "taxes" ... for an average worker in Sweden earning $45,720/year.

    Swedes pay 70 percent of salary in taxes: study
    https://www.thelocal.se/20121018/43900
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  9. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Sorry... going off topic?

    Couple of oddities in the article's math at a glance...

    "The sum includes taxes deducted from one's paycheck; value added taxes paid on consumption; as well as payroll taxes paid by employers."

    So wouldn't payroll taxes paid by the employer come from a different bucket? Or does the "salary" include all forms of compensation that we have here of employer contributions to health care and retirement accounts, etc.?

    "Meanwhile, of the 73,000 kronor paid in local taxes annually, elderly care consumes the largest amount -- 14,000 kronor, or about 19 percent -- while childcare and education account for about 30,000 kronor, or 41 percent."

    childcare is x% of 41% and education is 1-x% of 41%

    So the largest slice of 19% is bigger than the larger of part of 41%, or 19% > 20.5% at best?
     
    xcel likes this.
  10. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I don't know Bill, .. that's getting pretty detailed. Probably be best to ask one of the Swedes who has immigrated over here (I see (hear) them all the time, .. seriously).
    http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.2572/the-swedes-are-fleeing-the-country.html
     
    xcel likes this.
  11. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Again, sorry for the detour. I should learn to just let it go when I see something that my mind flags as dissonance. I appreciate the links, though. I'm learning a bit about the Swedes. You're a fount of such information. :)

    So the world's moving toward electrification trailed by California and its largest neighbor, the USA. :D I think I'll be there, too, sooner than later.

    For the short term, perhaps we'll revive the coal-fired steam engine. :eek:
     
    xcel likes this.
  12. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    I just wish the free market (NOT to be confused with crony-capitalism) would be left to figure out where we're headed. Get out of the middle east and let them blow each other up -- or not... I really don't care.

    I don't think you, or me, or the politicians, or even the CEO of Honda is smart enough to know what's going to happen. I think in some ways maybe it feels like it's 1880 again and big changes are about to happen. Maybe somebody's working on a really efficient steam engine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  13. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    As a huge fan of steam-punk , I hope so.
     
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Payroll taxes paid by the employer being counted as being paid by the employee is common practice for this accounting. The assumption is that the employer would pay that amount to the employee, if not for the tax.:rolleyes:

    Have to go to the original study to see if the salary quote includes just the money or all compensation. Same for answering the eldercare to childcare and education question. I suspect the later is more than just two streams of funds.

    Looking at just taxes paid is useless without considering the return of value for them. The rate for the pension tax in Sweden is twice that of Social Security in the US. Is a Swede's pension something that can support them alone in retirement, or just partially like SS? Depending on what that value is, a like to like comparison with US income might require adding in what the US employee pays outside of taxes to cover services provided by taxes in other countries. Include things like healthcare costs, and the US 'tax rate' might not be as far off from those in Europe.
    The free market and communism are just different sides of a mythical coin. When they are implemented as closely to their ideals as possible, you just end up with a wealthy upper class exploiting a lower one that isn't much different than feudal systems of the past.

    The godfather of capitalism believed that taxes were a requirement for a stable society.
     
    RedylC94, xcel and BillLin like this.
  15. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Having thought a little more...

    Honda's "euro vision" should be called "post diesel euro vision"..

    Euro diesel is roughly $5.27/gallon vs gasoline at $5.68. If you throw in a 30% mpg discount courtesy of the old (mostly unfiltered) diesels then the effective diesel price would be $3.69/gallon. So when you look at (effectively) moving from $3.69/gallon to $5.68/gallon on your next car purchase, ... something 'electrified' starts making economic sense.

    Maybe Honda's vision is in check.


    http://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    xcel and BillLin like this.
  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    xcel and BillLin like this.
  17. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 PiP, 2014 C-MAX Energi, 2017 Prime

    Very sad...
     
    xcel likes this.
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Isn't Toyota already reducing the number of diesels they offer in Europe?
     
    xcel likes this.
  19. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    A few (more) thoughts on Honda's "euro vision" vs. what they might see in the U.S.:

    1. Europe is roughly 1/2 the size of the lower 48, yet has more than twice the population.
    2. Euro's drive less than 8,000 miles/yr, while US more like 12,000 to 15,000
    3. Europe has a much more temperate climate than a lot of the US
    4. Europe gas prices (due to taxes) are 2 to 3X that of US

    I wouldn't be surprised if a 40 kwh BEV might last 2 or 4 or 6 or even more years than a 40 kwh BEV in the US (due to cycling on the battery, much easier to run it in the 20% to 80% range, and temps). The True Cost to Own a BEV in europe could work out to be substantially less than what it would in the US.

    Worth remembering (when comparing ‘the US’ to ‘Europe’)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
    BillLin likes this.

Share This Page