2017 Hyundai Ioniq HEV Available Now, BEV in April, and PHEV This Fall

Discussion in 'Hyundai' started by xcel, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bill:

    Glad I could answer that one. The Ioniq PHEV-27 not only has a much larger pack (9.8 kWh vs. 1.56 kWh), it also has a 40 percent stronger motor - not the motor but Voltage (360V vs 240V) supplying higher current under the hood too.

    Ioniq HEV: 32 kW (43 hp) Electric Motor
    Ioniq PHEV-27: 44.5 kW (60hp) Electric Motor

    The net hp and toque at WOT are the same for both however.

    Wayne
     
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  2. Fracino

    Fracino New Member

    Hi Wayne

    Could the 82 vs. 103 mgp city comparison between the Ioniq and the Prius be biased by a difference in battery depletion during the test?
    I mean: I understand it is possible to reach high SoC with the Prius, and then deeply deplete the battery down to low SoC. So if the Prius starts the test with high SoC and ends with low SoC, it will get better fuel economy than the Ioniq, which never goes below 1/3 SoC nor above 2/3 SoC.
    But in this case there would be "hidden" fuel consumption from the Prius, to charge the battery before and after the test?
     
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  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Fracino:

    Yes it could.

    2017 Hyundai Ioniq HEV

    [​IMG]
    Yes, it was raining a little for the morning drive. ;)

    However, I took the Prius Prime in HV mode all the way down to an engine start and drove around another two to three miles in HV mode to bring it up to operating temp. Once there, I waited for the next engine start, pulled over to a stop, and reset the aFCD before looping the city route. There is some hysteresis in the Prime's pack and there is no granularity to the SoC of one. This is why I also mentioned the std. 4th gen Prius which I know would easily achieve triple digits on the same city routing with the same SoC to SoC.

    2016 Toyota Prius First Drive Review - First Drive Results

    The Ioniq appears to perform well on the highway and I can attest to the drivetrains mid speed highway prowess given the 2017 Kia Niro CUV Sets GUINNESS WORLD RECORDS Title for Lowest Fuel Consumption for a Hybrid Vehicle. However, that 57 mpgUS city EPA rating is suspect. I spoke with 7 journalists in total from both Wave2 who had the good weather and my Wave3 where we had the poor weather. The non-scientific polling was the Ioniq was providing high 30s to low 40 mpg indicated for each of them. One of the very well read journalists I spoke with has driven the Mitsubishi Mirage to 71 mpg on a run between Las Vegas, NV and Los Angeles, CA. Yes it is downhill but it was an excellent result imho. He achieved 43 mpg on the uphill segment in really poor weather conditions to the first drivers change point at 600’ elev. in the Ioniq. Maybe 45 to 48 mpg actual depending on the SoC he began the drive with and accounting for the elevation gain. He told me he was trying too.

    Wayne
     
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  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    A good time for the R&H discussion…

    This is an area that I give the Ioniq a mixed review. An Independent rear end allows the tires to stay reasonably flat to the road surface no matter the body roll and an impacts on one side of the car only effects that wheel on that side of the car instead of both. Impact harshness was ok and in tighter off camber and decreasing radius turns, the R&H quotient was well composed. But… small inputs would cause more body roll through the first few degrees of the turn or roll before the shock damping stabilized the roll.

    2017 Hyundai Ioniq

    [​IMG]

    Having the Bolt to competitively compare against the Ioniq Electric and a Prime to compare to the Ioniq HEV and PHEV left me with this. The Bolt is stiff but very well composed despite its subcompact short 102” wheelbase. The Ioniq Electric is more comfortable thanks to the interior layout of the seats, controls and long reach wheel. A stiff point and shoot sporty R&H feel goes to the Bolt. Long range comfort easily goes to the Ioniq Electric.

    When considering the Ioniq HEV vs the Prius and Prius Prime R&H comparison, I like the Prius independent rear end better. It was linear through the turn and roll and felt better planted with less body pitch and roll without beating you up. However, the Ioniq HEV/PHEV driving position thanks to the superior ergonomic design would be a better choice for taller drivers in particular.

    Close to the R&H discussion besides the driver comfort was the interior noise. The Ioniq Blue trim is noisy as mentioned previously. The Prius Two Eco is a bit better with the Ioniq SEL/Limited and Prius Three/Four and Prime quiet enough to not be bothered with the outside world.

    Wayne
     
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  5. Fracino

    Fracino New Member

    That is troublesome indeed. In Europe we have had the Ioniq on the road for sometime, but meaningful comparisons with official fuel economy measures have not been possible, because unlike EPA, European official fuel economy measures are ridiculously complacent and unrealistic for all cars.

    I have been driving a hybrid Ioniq for one month and I certainly do urban driving: I live in Paris... My experience is that the car does behave like you described with the ICE kicking in whenever I pull off from a standstill. The motor is used in first gear, and the ICE kicks in second gear. I thought that was was done on purpose, because that would be a fuel-efficient way to charge the battery while pulsing the car to target speed, and then glide and deplete the battery at low urban speed until the next stop. But if you got better urban fuel economy with the Niro, then it seems an absurd choice from Hyundai/Kia engineers. Why would they set less efficient parameters on the Ioniq than on the Niro, which otherwise share the same traction hardware? That puzzles me.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
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  6. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    The initial fuelly results look ok (50 mpg-ish, about the same as the latest prius'ses)

    I wonder if the 2nd gear Ice start is a "smoothness" thing that Hyundai designed (compromised) into the car. .. maybe it won't please the hyper milers, but won't really be an issue with everyday drivers?
     
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  7. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    Carcus, I think it's a semantic thing. Hyundai's P2 powertrain always gets the car underway with the electric motor in first or reverse gear. The ICE is added later and that can be in any gear. For a full-throttle start, the ICE would be added soon after the car is underway (by the electric motor) in first. If you were coasting down hill in a gentle start, the ICE may not be started till top gear.
     
  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hi Jay,

    Maybe so,.. I haven't driven the Ioniq (or even read that much about it). But there does appear to be a difference in "ICE kick in" parameters in the Ioniq vs the Niro, as Wayne has mentioned... and (on comparing Niro vs Ioniq) green car reports said the Niro was "sluggish" on starts unless you put it in "sport" mode, which they recommended for all driving --to avoid the perceived sluggishness.

    So maybe "smoothness" isn't the right term, .. but perhaps Hyundai (and Kia) are balancing mpg numbers (real and EPA) vs ... let's call it "mass consumer drivability".
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Francino:

    I hope I did not mislead you here. In an urban (city) and extra-urban (highway) environment, the Niro and Ioniq perform similarly or possibly even exactly the same. Meaning very efficiently. It is the throttle tip-in creating an internal combustion engine (ICE) start up where there appears to be a programming misstep. Urban driving includes many red light to red light scenarios just a block or two ahead. Allowing the ICE to start up for any reason with a reasonable SoC still available is very detrimental to a full hybrids city efficiency. An electric motor provides its maximum torque at 0 RPM up and a large percentage of that torque up to about 1,500 RPM in a modern day Hybrid drivetrain with an A/C synchronous motor. From 25 percent load upwards - 11 hp/8 kW or more from the Ioniq's smallish 43 hp/32 kW motor, efficiency can be in the 90 to 95 percent range. An ICE has the lowest torque and lowest efficiency from launch and should never be used for a launch unless more power than the smallish electric motor can supply is demanded and especially when it will be shut down again within seconds to begin the glide to the next red light.

    At some point the ICE has to run and charge the traction battery from low SoC with the HSG in the Ioniq or MG1 in a Prius for example. It is detrimental to efficiency but it has to occur if running a good distance on electric in that environment.

    I do not know why the engineers programmed the throttle tip in/ICE start launch like they did but in my experience, they made a small mistake and a few code changes would fix this providing owners improved efficiency in an urban environment. The way around it is allow the Ioniq's creep function to get you up to 3 mph/5 kph before applying the accelerator. Sometime that is not possible depending on the traffic behind you at a launch from a red light or stop sign however.

    Wayne
     
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  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    Given the shift point and more ICE-on time programming in Sport mode, GCRs appear to want owners to receive lower efficiency? Applying more throttle in Eco, Normal, or Sport will provide the same output without the negative transmission, ICE-ON, and IIRC, HVAC changes.

    The term you and Jay may be looking for is "drivability" and it is a huge concern for every OEM. The drivetrain programming teams have to balance efficiency, emissions, drivetrain longevity, and owner’s expectations of acceleration performance to name a few. The balance is not usually in our best interest but in most cases, we can work around it. It is very hard to work around an inefficient drivetrain to begin with however. The Ioniq/Niro drivetrain does not fall into the inefficient category by any means.

    Wayne
     
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  11. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Hi Wayne,

    I think we all may be saying the same thing here. ..... but it brings up another point:

    I have been saying for years that the missed opportunity with plug in hybrids is the "performance" aspect. If the ioniq PHEV (and most all PHEVs) were designed.... and more importantly, marketed.... with a "sport" performance feature that decreased 0 to 40 mph times and increased throttle response, I think they could make hay off of the "electric turbocharger" drivability aspect even though the 'electric bits' would actually end up (mostly) improving fuel economy.

    "A spoon full of sugar...."

    /maybe GM seems to work this a little bit with the Volt, but that's about it in PHEV's. For Tesla ... it's their #1 marketing tool.
     
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  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    Very good point. With the Volt/Bolt's and even more so in the Tesla S acceleration capability all due to the larger traction batteries and especially electric motors, they own the affordable and non-affordable performance efficiency space. Unfortunately neither can compete with the efficiency that both Toyota and Hyundai offer. The GM/Tesla mass, volume, and cost penalty of large packs and motors is clearly evident in the weight, cargo volume, and especially the price tags.

    Wayne
     
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  13. Fracino

    Fracino New Member

    Thanks a lot Wayne for the explanations.

    Today I tried to work around this throttle tip-in by stopping and waiting a few meters behind the traffic light, or behind the vehicle preceding me. When I can see that the light is about to turn green, or that the car ahead is about to start, I release the brake pedal, thus gaining a bit of momentum before the light actually turns green, or the car ahead actually starts moving. I hope it will improve fuel efficiency over time.

    It does not appear to annoy the drivers around me. Nobody is losing time.
     
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  14. 300kmileprius

    300kmileprius Well-Known Member

    Thank you Empire Hyundai of Fall River Massachusetts for letting me test out the all new Ioniq hybrid. This was the SEL model rated at 55 mpg in town and 54 mpg on the highway. Hyundai finally has a real competitor to the Prius. For comparison, the 4th generation Prius is rated at 54 in town and 50 on the road. The eco models are rated at 59 city 57 highway and 58 city 53 highway for the Ioniq and Prius respectively. The 3rd generation Prius (2010-2015) is rated at 51 in town and 49 on the open road. Considering the damp and chilly weather conditions with temps in the low to mid 40's, these ratings seem to be accurate so far. A 34 mile 65 mph round trip allowed for 56 mpg on interstate 195. The car definitely would have done better in warmer weather.

    The car has a combined output of 139 hp and feels spirited. The electric motor itself is 43 hp powered by a 240 Volt lithium ion polymer battery which is guaranteed for the life of the car. I had no problem getting up to 95 mph and the car feels solid at that speed. On a clear day with less traffic, the car should push well over 100 mph. Handling is definitely better than the 2013 Elantra rental car I drove a few years back but the 4th Gen Prius is a little more precise. I haven't driven the redesigned 2017 Elantra yet for comparison. Unfortunately there is only one regenerative braking mode and it feels weaker than the Prius. The model I drove came with blind spot detection which worked very well. No back wiper is available which can be useful on a hatchback.

    The 6 speed dual clutch automatic shifted smoothly under normal acceleration but could have dropped back down a little quicker after full throttle acceleration. Slide the selector over to the left for full manual control of the transmission. The car will go in and out of electric only mode at highway speeds. I even was able to accelerate gradually on a flat road from 70 to 75 mph without turning on the gas engine. I suspect the top EV speed is unlimited at least as a glide. In a 2016 Sonata hybrid, I have seen the engine drop out as high a 95 mph and 83 mph for the Kia Niro hybrid which has the same driveline as the Ioniq.

    Overall this is a great competitor to the Prius and I hope Hyundai sells a lot of them. A fully electric version with a 124 mile range should be available very soon and a plugin hybrid version will arrive later this year. It will be interesting to see how reliable this driveline turns out to be vs the Planetary system in the Prius and other Toyota and Ford hybrids. The Sonata hybrid has been around since 2011 with a similar driveline. At some point I will try to get my hands on a used Sonata hybrid with a fair number of miles to see how it holds up. My wife liked the Ioniq but has not driven the 4th Gen Prius yet and plans to do so before making any decision. For now she is still very happy with her 2008 Nissan Altima hybrid and she has decided to keep driving it for now. That is all for now, more information after the next test drive hopefully in warmer and drier weather.
     
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  15. alster

    alster Well-Known Member

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  16. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I am beginning to see $3k discounts on the Limited trims through the Hyundai Spring Cleaning Event but nothing on the base Blue or SEL. Only $500 off on the two lower trims? Maybe this is loss leader, maybe program/lightly used Hyundai cars, or maybe Hyundai is pushing $s out on the Limited only?

    2017 Hyundai Ioniq Limited for $3,042 off

    [​IMG]

    The SEL is the trim I would recommend as it provides Blue trim efficiency w/ the 15's, the quietness of the Limited, and for a pretty darn good starting price. The $1,750 gap to get into an SEL is a bit steep but along with the efficiency and quietness additions, you also gain heated side mirrors w/ turn-signal indicators, a chrome beltline molding, lower side moldings, LED DRLs, 10-way power driver seat with power lumbar support, heated front seats, rear center armrest with cupholders, leather-wrapped steering wheel and shift knob - very important upgrade over the poly wheel, and a 7-inch hi res LCD instrument cluster you have seen pics from the review in earlier posts.

    The SEL trimmed Ioniq can also be equipped with the $1,000 tech pkg. incl. Automatic Emergency Braking, Smart Cruise Control, and Lane Departure Warning. I recommend that pkg. as well.

    Wayne
     
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  18. Jay

    Jay Well-Known Member

    The SEL trim with tech package is best for me, I think. As I do inventory searches in my region, I see a good mix of trims and colors but zero tech packages out there (160 mile radius). Not sure what the deal is with that. I believe I will keep my car through the summer and wait for better deals and better selection. Where did you find that deal on the Ltd, Wayne?
     
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  19. all_about_the_glide

    all_about_the_glide Well-Known Member

    PRIME all day long.
     
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  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Jay:

    Win Hyundai in Carson, Calif. is where I saw this deal at. They are located just south of LA and east of Torrance just off the 405 here in Southern Calif.

    All_about_the_Glide, I cannot blame you wrt the "Prime"!

    Wayne
     
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