Discussion in 'Hyundai' started by xcel, Dec 25, 2015.
Roughly 350lbs heavier than the hybrid. Not too bad, I guess. The hybrid would be my first choice.
It will all come down to total cost which we will hopefully hear about very soon. If the Federal TC is still available in 2018 and the Ioniq PHEV has a starting price of maybe $27k incl. $885 D&H - $2k more than the $24,835 incl. D&H that the Ioniq HEV SEL costs, take off ~ $5k for the Fed TC, $1,500 for the State (Calif. anyway?), it would cost about $20k retail. That is $5k below the HEVs price and would be darn enticing.
Some wishful thinking however with Toyota's Prius Prime as the true target. The base 2017 Toyota Prius Prime starts at $27,995 including D&H and TSS-P with Hi/Lo LED headlamps, Auto High Beam, Forward Collision Warning w/ Auto brake, and Radar CC.
With the Prime's pricing in mind, my fingers are crossed that Hyundai provides the HEVs SEL's Tech pkg. for an additional $1k and within that pkg. includes Automatic Emergency Braking, Blind Spot Detection (BSD), Rear Cross Traffic Alert (RCTA), Lane Change Assist (LCA), and Radar CC (SCC).
Packaging RCTA, FCW w/ Auto Braking, and RCC is a really big deal imho. Toyota left BSM and RCTA off their Prime until you move up into the most expensive Advanced trim.
More than likely Hyundai will bundle the safety features within their Ultimate package including the Dynamic Bending HIDs and sunroof while adding another $3k to the Limited price?
As a heads up, Bob Winger hit a deer with his 16 Sonata HEV Limited last month and a single Dynamic Bending HID cost $2,700 to replace. Ouch!
Just when OEMs headlong push into the fuel saving technology is picking up steam, the loss of the Federal Tax credit will probably decimate PHEV/BEV sales. Unless…
Wayne Gerdes – CleanMPG – Dec. 6, 2017
As I am prepping to attend a regional event covering the Ioniq PHEV this morning, a few thoughts.
The recent Republican tax bill voted in by the House is moving through Congress which if kept in the House-Senate Conference bill and adopted would repeal the Federal Tax Credit of up to $7,500 for the 2017 tax year. If this occurs, either OEMs electrified drivetrain offerings will have to see a much lower MSRP or the plug-in market will evaporate. Given the very steep upfront upcharges, this segment is barely on life support.
The Ioniq PHEV uses the same drivetrain - the GDI I4 and electric motor is the same as the std. HEV - and the platform is the same. Packaging adds little as the spare wheel well is being filled with the larger - 8.9 kWh pack vs. 1.56 kWh pack - but there is a more robust higher current inverter and the onboard Level2 charger hardware. This last one is the real expense
Here is a back of the envelope cost analysis. With OEM traction battery costs falling to < $100/kWh, the Ioniq PHEV's additional 7.34 kWh battery should add < $700 to the cost of the PHEV. The onboard charger probably cost less than $500 from an OEM perspective, and the Inverter changes are going to add < $50. In other words, the PHEV should only cost as a guess, $1,250 more than the std. HEV. Unfortunately, the rest of the industry is pushing their BEVs and PHEVs with upcharges between $2,500 and $15k with the higher end targets being hidden under even more profitable higher end trims and using the Federal Tax credit to add profitability. I am considering the Volt vs. Cruze hatch or LEAF vs Versa. The latest sedan PHEVs from Honda - Accord vs. Clarity, Kia Optima HEV vs PHEV, Hyundai Sonata HEV vs PHEV, Volvo XC90 vs XC90 PHEV, plus BMWs and Mercedes Benz' electrified offerings are in no better shape with thousands to tens of thousands added on to both "cover" the additional hardware and create a profitable model line.
With no federal tax credit, either the MSRPs come down to meet the new total cost of ownership reality or the electrified PHEV/BEV lineups will wither to oblivion.
Considering Hyundai built their PHEVs around the HEVs from the beginning with economy of scale cost basis and minimal PHEV price increases, I believe the Ioniq PHEV has the best chance of surviving the Fed TC loss as they “could” price the Ioniq PHEV with a $1.0k to $1.5k upcharge. The Sonata/Optima PHEV pricing will have to be reduced significantly however. GM’s Volt and Bolt are probably DOA at their current price points?
Can GM absorb a $10k reduction of MSRP and make an internal case for profitability from either? Same with Nissan’s new 150-mile range LEAF. The 40-kWh traction battery is an OEM $4k markup and the Level2 charging HW uses the same cost estimates as the Ioniq PHEV above. The standalone 147 hp electric motor should not cost more than $2 to $3k vs. $1.5 to $2k for a std. I4 and CVT. The 2018 Versa Note S retails for just under $16,500 USD incl. D&H. The LEAF S retails for $30,885 incl. D&H albeit it does include a few more std. features.
Do the math and the electrified highway uphill grade just increased by a few more degrees.
Come on 2020 already! Sharpton/Kapernick will correct this problem. We had a guy stop at work who lived out in the burbs and said he was buying a Bolt and his plan was to use solar panels to provide the electric to charge it with. Pretty clever thinking on his part.
Who killed the electric car ? Not GM this time.
Could be a death sentence for electric vehicles, but EVs should really be able to be sustained without subsidy, and the cost differential isn't going to get much better short of a battery breakthrough. Also, are supplies of raw materials used in present battery chemistries sufficient for our envisioned EV future? I favor smaller batteries. Spread the same scarce resources over more vehicles.
Another approach rather than subsidizing EVs would be to penalize combustion engines commensurate with the level of greenhouse gas production. Isn't something like this being done in London? That's the example that comes to mind, but there are likely other places that have enacted tougher disincentives to gasoline and diesel consumption.
I think a BEV with 100 miles of range is sufficient. The Bolts and Model 3's both want bragging rights , and perhaps that's what the (smug) buyers want , too.
But not what they actually need.
In the real world , it's the American way to be excessive in everything , "just because we can". I don't feel that way.
I feel the same way. If there is a truly competitive BEV or PHEV out there then it doesn't need a subsidy. Subsidies encourage waste, graft, corruption (witness Solyndra) and it lets politicians (which are dumber than a box of rocks) pick technology winners instead of those spending their own money. I like Mazda's approach of improving ICE tech to make it competitive with the electrics in cleanliness, and bettering them in overall value and utility. Small OEMs, like Mazda, are punished disproportionately when states, like CA, demand that they spend billions to develop the vehicles that most people don't want before they let them sell the vehicles that people really want. This is another subsidy I'd like to see discontinued.
Does anyone know whether the Ioniq PHEV will be released in the U.S. before December 31? It seems strange that there's still no official release date on Hyundai's website, even though they've been saying all year that it will be available "this fall" (which I see they've now changed to "this winter"). I'm wondering whether it would be realistic to buy this car while the tax credit still exists.
Also, and this may be a dumb question to ask about a car that hasn't even been released yet, but does anyone have any opinions on/knowledge of whether it would be bad for the Ioniq PHEV to rarely charge the battery and drive it mostly in hybrid mode? I don't own my own home, and while there is a garage with working electricity at the house where I rent, the garage roof leaks like crazy in the rain, and I don't really trust that charging the car here would be safe, even with a weather-proof outlet (though I'd love to be proven wrong). So my plan for the last six months or so (that is, before the tax bill passed) was to pick up an Ioniq PHEV whenever it came out, charge it once a month or so at a public charging station (there's one near my work, but it costs $.49/kwh) just to keep the battery healthy, and then just drive it in regular hybrid mode 99% of the time. The reason I was planning on doing this rather than just buying an Ioniq hybrid: the hybrid Blue in the NYC area is about $22K, whereas if the base model Ioniq PHEV were to be priced at $25K (this assumes, perhaps naively, that the base model Ioniq PHEV will be priced $2K below the base model Prius Prime), then with the $4500 federal PHEV tax credit, and the $1100 NY State PHEV tax credit, I could pick up an Ioniq PHEV for $19,400, before any dealer discounts.
I've seen on Priuschat that there are some Prime owners who only charge the Prime every month or so and drive it almost exclusively as a regular hybrid, and this apparently doesn't have any negative effects on the long-term health of the car. But I'm not sure whether this would hold true for the Ioniq PHEV. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.
I'm still waiting for delivery of my Elio , lol. It's all vaporware until my boot actually hits the tire sidewall.
A maximum 100 mile range may be sufficient for your needs but that leaves little margin when one has a long daily commute distance of 85 miles round trip.
I only have a second as I am at the 18 LEAF Short Lead in NAPA right now. I was at an Ioniq PHEV regional event at Hyundai HQ two days ago and they said the PHEV will be released the public in one to two weeks. No pricing was announced however? I think they are waiting to see what happens with the Conference bill before they announce full pricing. Notice the Prime is not yet available as a 2018, the 18 Optima PHEV the same, and the 18 Sonata HEV/PHEVs have not been announced either. I bet Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia are are waiting to see what comes of the bill before trying to add a sticker price since they all want to capture more $s and allow the Fed TC to be the consumer carrot instead of a much lower MSRP.
Interesting. Thanks, Wayne.
The 2018 Hyundai Ioniq IIHS Crash Tests have been completed and as of this test cycle, the lineup achieved Top Safety Pick status, not Top Safety Pick Plus status. A year ago, the Ioniq lineup would have achieved the Plus rating due to the perfect structural crash test scores of Good across the board. For 2018 however, the IIHS has incorporated its headlamp scores and in this one instance, the Limited trims HIDs scored Acceptable while the SEL/Blue trims projector halogen headlamps achieved a Poor rating.
I suspect Hyundai engineers are already reworking the headlamps on both the Blue/SEL and Limited trims and soon afterwards will pay to have both trims retested. When they achieve Good on both, they will have earned their TSP + rating for the model. Hyundai works in mid-year updates to strengthen their crash test scores more than any other OEM.
The 2018 Hyundai Ioniq IIHS infographic directly below is linked back to the test results detail where you can read more about the headlamp(s) shortfalls.
wow. all those high voltage cables ripped off the converters.
Post #224 through #233 within the 2017 Hyundai Ioniq HEV Available Now, BEV in April, and PHEV This Fall contain most of the 2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV-29s presentation details... It was not a short lead or a regional but more like an OEM presentation invite and very short first drive with a neat destination.
Hyundai’s Ioniq Plug-in visits the Richard Nixon Presidential Library in Yorba Linda, California
The 2018 Hyundai #Ioniq PHEV first all-electric drive details.
2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV-29
Hyundai's North American HQ in Fountain Valley, CA along the I-405 is set at an elevation of about 35' ASL. The destination via a circuitous route was the Nixon Presidential Library in Yorba Linda, CA at 380 ft. ASL. The peak elevation along the route occurred on the CA-241 Eastern Transportation Corridor Toll Road at just over 1,500' ASL. Temps ranged from 77 to 75 degrees F and strong Santa Ana winds out of the southeast were mostly straight down the hood with wind speeds estimated at between 5 mph at launch and 30 mph at the peak elevations.
2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV-29 30.8 actual miles drive route.
And the first drive results while climbing into a very stiff headwind at the higher elevations? I departed Hyundai HQ with another journalist in the Ioniq PHEV showing 29 miles electric range and a solid 16 of 16 pips filled. When I arrived, the Ioniq showed just 3-miles of range left but 5 of 16 pips SoC were still lit? Like all Hyundai’s, the odometer is short of actual. In this case, 30.8 miles actual and 30.2 miles indicated is the brands standard 1.9 percent shortfall.
The 5 of 16 pips of SoC left indicates that the Ioniq may have had another 9.1 miles of range at EPA and maybe 15 more at the limits? Add another 3.5 miles due to the initial to final elevation ascent, and another 2+ miles due to the strong headwinds... All in, possibly 50+ miles from the 29-mile rated all-electric range rated Ioniq PHEV is a solid result imho. At first glance, it appears to have some long legs on its 8.9 kWh pack! I will have to explore that last 30 percent SoC action when I receive one for a week sometime in the future?
It rides better than the regular Ioniq and is quieter than the insulation stripped Blue trim Ioniq Hybrid. The digital displays are top notch other than a single aFCD. I continue to throw up my hands on that one??? Full telescopic range sun visors are a godsend, std. Android Auto just works fantastic, the electric efficiency is great, and like all Hyundai's, I can live behind the wheel and in those comfortable seats for 12+ hours per day without a second thought!
2018 Hyundai Ioniq PHEV-29
Where do you want to take your Ioniq PHEV today?
Hyundai just announced pricing for the 2018 Ioniq PHEV-29 this afternoon.
2018 Hyundai IONIQ Line-up - Charting the Changes
Paddle shifters are available on Hybrid model in both the SEL and Limited trims
Lane Keep Assist was added to Lane Departure Warning (SEL Tech and Limited w/ the Ultimate package)
New red exterior color available for Hybrid models <-- Yeah!
PHEV-29 model added to the line-up.
Electric model was simplified to two trims: Electric and Limited
Besides the tens of posts detailing almost every aspect of the all-new PHEV above, the new 2018 Ioniq Plug-in Hybrid provides an all-electric range of MORE than 29 miles from its 8.9 kWh Li-Ion polymer battery. It is EPA rated at 119 MPGe in EV mode and 52 MPG in hybrid mode.
In addition, the Ioniq PHEV also features low-beam LED headlamps as standard equipment. <-- Yeah for that too! The PHEV integrates a charging portal into the left front fender for the lithium-ion polymer battery. Specially-designed 16-inch alloy wheels further differentiate the PHEV from the HEV and Electric.
2018 IONIQ PHEV-29 MSRP
IONIQ PHEV-29: $24,950 + D&H
IONIQ PHEV-29 Limited: $28,300 + D&H <-- Now that is not a bad base price!!!
D&H has yet TBA but will probably be $885 and the Fed TC will place a nice $4,919 back into your pocket if you qualify.
After the TC and D&H, the Base and Limited "should" list at $20,916 and $24,266 after the Fed TC respectively. I am confident the $1,000 Competitive Owner Coupon discount/rebate will be available following the Ioniq HEVs only real discount to knock the base just below the $20k mark + TTL and taking off any state incentives that may be available in your locale.
Wow, that's a lot cheaper than the Prime. And it has adjustable sun visors. Have they announced when it will be available? They need to step it up and beat Honda to market. First one with heated seats and Android Auto/Apple CarPlay gets my money. (I know that pride goeth before a fall, but come on Toyota. Drop the Entune already. It sucks.) Virtually every review I watched of the Prime and regular Prius mentions the lack of CarPlay.
This beats Kia's offering by a whopping $3k! I just saw a posting for the Niro PHEV at CNET Roadshow.
Separate names with a comma.