Honda and Toyota FCV World Debuts with Headwinds

Discussion in 'FCV or Fuel Cell Vehicle' started by xcel, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The Toyota Mirai made a journey through London’s on an H2 powered journey to mark its UK market debut and the arrival of the new 65-plate registration.


    The UK is among Toyota’s first European markets for Mirai, its introduction linked to the development of a national infrastructure for supplying H2.

    Hydrogen is stored in the car’s high-pressure tanks and used to generate electric power in a Toyota-designed fuel cell system.

    Mirai has an on-the-road price of $100,185 USD before any Government incentive is taken into account. The great majority of Mirai’s UK customers are expected to lease their vehicle and Toyota will shortly be announcing an attractively priced leasing program.

    I have no idea what the 65-plate registration detail means and hopefully someone will look it up and let us all know.

  2. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    The 65 just indicates how old the car is. For whatever reason the UK thinks that's important enough to include in a registration number.
    xcel likes this.
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Honda will be exhibiting its production ready FCV at the 44th Tokyo Motor Show

    Hi All:

    Using its "The Power of Dreams" moniker, Honda will exhibit a broad range of products including innovative mobility products at his years Tokyo Auto Show.

    2017 Honda FCV Sedan


    The all-new Honda FCV is the world's first production intent FCV sedan with the entire fuel-cell powertrain located under the hood. This powertrain layout enabled a full cabin package that seats five adults comfortably.

    The all-new FCV features a cruising range of approximately 300 miles on the EPA test cycles. In Japanese trim, it can also provide emergency household power by feeding its output through an inverter.

    Still not sure who is going to buy it in quantity large enough to cover the manufacturing however? The FCX was a failure and not much has changed since then.

  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Nearly 1,900 people have raised their hand for a Toyota Mirai, exceeding the expected initial production run of the H2FCV. The two month old Mirai order page is now directing customers to a wait list, as new production meets initial demand.

    Toyota anticipates an allotment of nearly 1,000 2016 Mirai’s in the U.S. The existing order requests are being reviewed, and Toyota will begin placing the first trailblazing customers in the Mirai driver’s seat later this month.

    2016 Toyota Mirai


    1,000 in 2016? Honda could not sell a 70 over 9 years of FCX Clarity availability?

    Honda FCX Clarity U.S. Sales

    2006 - 6
    2007 - 10
    2008 - 5
    2009 - 5
    2010 - 17
    2011 - 2
    2012 - 5
    2013 - 10
    2014 - 2

    In January 2015, Toyota announced a Mirai global production capacity increase in an effort to satisfy overwhelming demand in all markets. Potential Mirai customers can still request the car of the future at Mirai. A wait list will be created for the next Mirai allotment and potential customers contacted when production is available.

  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The best FCV vid/advert I have seen to date. :)

    Congrats to Michael J. Fox and Christopher Lloyd.


  6. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Yeah , but where's Ed Begley Jr ? Michael has been busy in television , but haven't seen much of Christopher. It's a good commercial. Makes me want to go out and buy..........

    an Accord PHEV.
  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Edwin:

  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Honda is calling it a Clarity again.


    Honda’s World Premiere of its Clarity FCV at 44th Tokyo Motor Show 2015.

    Honda today unveiled the world premiere of the planned production model of its new fuel cell vehicle (FCV). This model is on display at the Honda booth during the Tokyo Motor Show now.

    The all-new Clarity fuses the ease of use of a gasoline-powered vehicle and values that are unique to a FCV at a high level. This fusion gives this sedan-type FCV high value and potential to set a benchmark for FCVs now and in the future.

    Employing original Honda tech, the fuel cell stack for this model was downsized by 33 percent compared to the previous version yet output of more than 100kW and output density of 3.1 kW/L – approximately 60 percent improvement. The FCV powertrain was made as compact as a V6 engine making it possible to consolidate it under the hood of a sedan-type vehicle for the first time ever. This powertrain layout enabled a full cabin package that seats five adults.

    Combined with improved efficiency of the powertrain and a reduced energy requirement for driving, a 10,100 high-pressure H2 storage tank installed in the vehicle provides a cruising range of more than 420 miles on the JC08 – maybe 300 miles on our own EPA. The tank can be refilled in approximately three minutes, realizing ease of use equivalent to that of a gasoline-powered vehicle. The high-output motor with maximum output of 130kW is quick and quiet.

    When combined with an external power feed, the Clarity can function as a “power plant on wheels” that generates and provides electricity to the community in times of a disaster or other events.

    Honda will begin lease sales in Japan in March 2016 with focus on local government bodies or business customers which Honda has already been working together for the popularization of FCVs. Imagine that…

    Honda will begin with small-volume production at the Production Supervisory Unit and Powertrain Production Supervisory Unit (located in Takanezawa-machi, Shioya-gun, Tochigi, Japan.), then eventually expand production volume and begin regular sales along with lease sales. The sales price in Japan will be $63,227 USD at today’s exchange rate (including consumption tax). The external power adapter - Power Exporter 9000 - has the capacity to feed approximately seven-days’ worth of electricity for an average Japanese household and is scheduled to go on sale at the same time as the Clarity. It will be rolled out in the U.S. and Europe at approximately the same time.

    In 2002, the Honda FCX became the first fuel cell vehicle in the world to be certified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board (CARB). With these certifications, Honda began lease sales of the Honda FCX in Japan and the U.S. In 2008, Honda became the first automaker to begin lease sales of the FCX Clarity, which featured an innovative sedan-type package and unprecedented driving experience. The all-new Clarity was developed based on various data related to the ease of use and driving performance of these previous Honda FCVs.

    I am not getting this one. Another Clarity with similar attributes but is 8 years newer. See Clarity sales results above for why this is not making sense.

    Basic Specs

    Number of occupants: 5
    Cruising range: More than 425 miles on JC08 Mode or ~ 300 miles on our own EPA.
    Refueling time: Approximately 3 minutes
    FC maximum output: More than 100kW
    FC stack output density: 3.1kW/L
    Motor maximum output: 130kW
    H2 maximum filling pressure: 10,100 psi
    Energy storage: Li-Ion battery
    Vehicle dimensions (length x width x height): 192.7 in x 73.8 in x 58.1 in
    Price: $63,227 USD at today’s exchange rate

    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  9. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    Huh. Toyota's recent work makes this look attractive in comparison. I hated the look when it first came out, but it's been FAR out-uglied by the new prius and mirai.
    xcel likes this.
  10. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    Wayne, a couple of typos in the JC08 range.

    Hydrogen for cars is the ultimate chicken and egg conundrum.

    How do we build the hydrogen supply infrastructure, before building a lot of FCEV cars?

    How do we build a lot of FCEV cars, before building a hydrogen supply infrastructure?

    One cannot succeed without the other.
    xcel likes this.
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Earlier today from the floor of the LA Auto Show, Honda released a few more details on its upcoming 2017 Clarity FCV.

    Not really anything new but the Clarity FCV achieves improved passenger and cargo volume thanks to smaller packaging of the stack, better efficiency and improved real-world performance vs. the previous gen Clarity.

    Honda will begin deliveries of the Clarity Fuel Cell to customers in late 2016 through select FCV dealers in select California markets starting in Los Angeles and Orange Counties, the San Francisco Bay Area and Sacramento.

    Eventually, Honda will expand the scope of its marketing to additional California markets and other states, including the Northeast as hydrogen refueling networks expand. The Clarity Fuel Cell will be priced competitively with others in the segment and Honda expects its new generation of environmental vehicles, which includes the Clarity Fuel Cell, to serve as a new volume pillar for Honda. Meaning they will sell a few for PR but nothing will move at the projected $60k + price point.

    Customers interested in the Clarity Fuel Cell are encouraged to sign up at Honda FCV where they can receive more information and sign up for the opportunity to become a future Clarity Fuel Cell customer. Not sure why anyone would want to sign up but the link is there for those interested.

    Latest Clarity FCV

    Technologically, the Calrity fuel cell stack that is 33 percent more compact than its predecessor with a 60 percent increase in power density compared. The more compact fuel cell powertrain is now the size of a V6 engine and fits entirely under the hood of the car. The new Honda Clarity Fuel Cell will feature a driving range estimated to exceed 300 miles, and an anticipated refueling time of approximately three minutes.

    As the next progression in Honda's dynamic FCV styling, the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell features a low, wide aerodynamic body with clean character lines. I liked the previous Clarity better but it is what it is.

    The Clarity will be loaded with Honda Sensing safety and driver assistive technologies, support for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto, LED exterior lighting and 18-inch alloys. It will arrive in black, white and signature red exterior paint schemes.

    Honda’s company-wide goal of reducing CO2 emissions by 50 percent by 2050 will leverage the Clarity FCV going forward.

    With < 70 Clarity’s sold over the previous 8 years, I like most everyone else are wondering what changed and why try and enter a market with a hugely expensive car that does nothing different?

    In an effort to speed the advancement of a refueling infrastructure outside of California, in May 2013 American Honda joined the public-private partnership H2USA, which brings together automakers, government agencies, hydrogen suppliers, and the hydrogen and fuel-cell industries to coordinate research and identify cost-effective solutions to deploy infrastructure that can deliver affordable, clean hydrogen fuel in the United States. Additionally, in an effort to support the wider introduction of fuel-cell vehicles, Honda in 2014 pledged $13.8 million in financial support to FirstElement Fuel to build additional hydrogen refueling stations throughout the state of California.

    In June 2013, Honda entered into a long-term collaborative agreement with GM to co-develop the next-generation of fuel-cell systems and hydrogen storage technologies, aiming for the 2020 timeframe. The collaboration expects to succeed by sharing technological expertise, economies of scale and other benefits.

    Again, $60k cars? Unless they are $25k cars and H2 refueling is available all over the country at $3.00/gallon equivalent or less, what is the point of releasing them?

  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    From the LA Auto Show floor in the Honda area on Thursday morning was the all-new upcoming Clarity including a pic of the fuel cell stack outside and another “jammed” – literally – in the engine bay.




  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Toyota’s Mirai FCV enters service as a private taxi with green tomato cars.


    London’s first hydrogen-fueled private hire car took to the streets this week: a new Toyota Mirai FCV operated by greentomatocars. The first customer to experience Mirai was Holly Tucker, a medical student, who travelled 10 emissions-free miles from her home in Wimbledon to the West End.

    It was a perfectly timed debut for the Mirai. With increased traffic from thousands of Christmas shoppers and deliveries in London, it is one vehicle that won’t be adding to pollution levels in the capital, as the only local emission it produces from its tailpipe is water.

    Spacious, refined and comfortable, the Mirai combines advanced technology with superb practicality.

    A full-tank driving range of around 300 miles compares favorably with some lower range cars and refueling takes about three minutes.

    Greentomatocars is one of the first European customers for Mirai, taking two cars from the initial 12 that Toyota expects to be on the road in the UK before the end of this year.

  14. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Honda Begins Sales of All-new Clarity Fuel Cell

    This past Thursday, Honda began sales of its all-new fuel cell vehicle (FCV), the Clarity Fuel Cell exclusively in Japan.

    Honda created the Clarity FCV featuring both a high level of practicality and “cutting-edge appeal”. The Clarity Fuel Cell is the world’s first FCV making use of the smallest and most energy dense FCV powertrain able to fit entirely under the hood of the car.

    Combined with the improved efficiency of the powertrain and a reduced energy requirement for driving, a 10,100 psi high-pressure H2 storage tank provides a cruising range of approximately 465 miles on the Japan JC08 so maybe 300 miles on our own EPA. The onboard H2 tank can be refilled in approximately three minutes.

    The Clarity Fuel Cell is really a serial electric vehicle equipped with a high-output motor with maximum output of 130 kW. The Clarity Fuel Cell can function as a “power source on wheels” that is capable of supplying approximately seven-days’ worth of electricity for a small and energy efficient Japanese household.

    For the first year of the Clarity Fuel Cell launch in Japan, Honda will focus on lease sales mainly to local government bodies or businesses.

    Honda will begin with small-volume production at the Production Supervisory Unit and Powertrain Production Supervisory Unit (located in Takanezawa-machi, Shioya-gun, Tochigi, Japan.), eventually expanding production volume. Moreover, Honda is planning to introduce the Clarity Fuel Cell to Europe and the U.S. before the end of 2016.

    Honda was one of the first automakers to begin focusing attention on H2 as a possible next step in sustainable transportation to reduce or eliminate global warming and depletion of fossil fuels. Honda has been working on FCV R&D since the late 1980s.

    Honda’s Japanese Sales plan: Approximately 200 vehicles in year one.
    BillLin likes this.
  15. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    How many kg's does the Clarity FCV carry?
  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Honda Clarity FCV on Display at New York International Auto Show

    Hi All:

    Honda is giving media and consumers a firsthand look at a U.S. spec version of the next-generation Clarity FCV sedan at the New York International Auto Show this week.

    The five-passenger, H2-powered Clarity FCV, scheduled to be released later this year, features the most advanced technology available on a fuel cell vehicle (FCV) including Honda Sensing as well as support for Apple CarPlay and Android Auto.


    As the next progression in Honda's dynamic FCV styling, the Honda Clarity FCV features a low, wide aerodynamic body with clean character lines. The premium-contented interior creates a refined experience with intuitive, streamlined controls. The Clarity Fuel Cell will be available in black, white and signature red exterior paint schemes.

    A reengineered 2017 Accord Hybrid will go on-sale this spring, with a new Honda Plug-in Hybrid vehicle based on the same platform as the Clarity Fuel Cell slated for launch by 2018. Honda is also developing a new battery electric vehicle, also slated for launch by 2018.

    Honda continues to state that its all-new Clarity FCV will feature a 300 mile driving range with an anticipated refueling time of approximately less than five minutes.

    Slated to begin retail leasing to customers in select California markets before the end of 2016, the Clarity FCV is expected to be priced around $60,000 with a targeted monthly lease under $500. <-- None of which makes practical or financial sense.

    The Clarity FCVs modern interior raises intuitive operation and digital connectivity to the next level by incorporating a floating 8-inch Display Audio touchscreen that serves as the nerve center for control of audio, navigation and other functions including energy monitor and a Hydrogen station locator.

    The new Display Audio is integrated with new Apple CarPlay and Android Auto platforms, providing seamless integration of smartphone features and functions, including app-based navigation, streaming audio, voice-controlled search capabilities, and access to a host of Apple- or Google-approved smartphone apps.

    Honda Sensing uses advanced sensor technology to detect a potential collision or lane departure and can initiate both emergency steering and braking to prevent or mitigate the severity of a vehicle collision. Technologies include Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) with emergency braking, Lane Departure Warning (LDW), Forward Collision Warning (FCW), Lane Keeping Assist (LKAS), Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) and Road Departure Mitigation (RDM).

    BillLin likes this.
  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Capitol Hyundai in San Francisco is The Fifth Certified Tucson FCV Dealership


    Capitol Hyundai in San Jose, California became the fifth qualified dealer for Hyundai’s Tucson FCV. Capitol Hyundai of San Jose will be the first Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell dealer in Northern California’s Bay Area region. Since its launch in June 2014, Tucson Fuel Cell drivers have accumulated nearly one million zero-emissions miles on the streets of Southern California. This accumulated mileage has helped improve air quality in the region by more than 400 tons of CO2 emissions. CO2 is not an air quality pollutant in the strictest sense but I digress. Hyundai has delivered nearly 100 Tucson FCVs since its introduction as the first mass-produced fuel cell vehicle in the U.S. market in June 2014.

    Capitol Hyundai joins existing Hyundai Fuel Cell dealers Keyes Hyundai, Tustin Hyundai, Win Hyundai in Carson and Hardin Hyundai in Anaheim, for a total of five qualified fuel cell dealers in both Southern and Northern California. To become a qualified Hyundai Fuel Cell dealer, approved dealers must fulfill significant additional hydrogen fuel cell requirements in both customer service and technical services.

  18. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I didn't catch this one before. This is BIG news. I hope Honda can compete and possibly dominate in the hybrid market again. I am a "Honda guy" , but accept the fact that Toyota hybrids have unmatched reliability. And okay fuel economy when driven correctly.
    xcel likes this.
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota Mirai Long Distance European Drive

    Hi All:

    16 hours/day for 107 days in Germany

    Toyota’s new Mirai FCV successfully completed a 62,000 mile European road test that began last September and finished this past February. For 107 days, the Mirai was on the road for 16 hours. During its 62,000 mile journey, the car was refueled nearly 400 times with just over 1,000 kg of hydrogen, its tires changed twice, and its front brake pads replaced. No mechanical breakdowns were reported.


    Toyota specified the total distance and the amount of time spent on different types of road: in the city, on rural roads, on Interstates – motorways over there, and on German autobahns with no speed limits. Toyota hired a group that used a carefully calculated route in and around Hamburg, and organized a team of eight drivers working in two shifts per day, six days a week.

    Toyota also asked the eight drivers for their feedback on the Mirai driving experience. The interior of the Mirai was comfortable with the luxurious leather seats and steering wheel. The tallest driver commented that there was plenty of legroom. How tall? I have no idea? It handled well on curves, was easy to man oeuvre, and the steering was responsive. Acceleration was smooth, and the drivers were impressed by the car’s power, which they said was immediately available when necessary, for example to overtake or surge away from traffic lights.

    The drivers themselves were responsible for filling the Mirai’s tanks with H2. The drivers found refueling a very easy process. They recognized a major advantage of the Mirai over other electric vehicles. Instead of having to recharge overnight, the Mirai could be refueled in just three minutes.

  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    London’s first H2 refuelling station

    Hi All:

    ITM Power officially launched its first public access H2 refuelling station in London at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington. The station was opened to the public by Andrew Jones MP, Transport Minister at Department for Transport, and was supported by Toyota and fellow automotive manufacturer members of the European HyFive consortium, Hyundai, Honda and Renault’s technology partner Symbio FCell.


    The station is the first of three to be opened in the UK as part of the pan-European HyFive project, funded by the European Fuel Cell and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCHJU) and the UK Government Office of Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV).

    Transport Minister Andrew Jones MP announced a $2.9 million USD government fund to support the roll-out of H2 vehicles in public and private sector fleets.

    Located at the National Physical Laboratory in Teddington, the H2 refuelling station is close to the A316 and A308 trunk roads and is available for commercial and private fleets operating fuel cell electric vehicles. Delegates took part in a ‘ride and drive’ that showcased a range of fuel cell electric vehicles, including the Toyota Mirai and models from Hyundai and Honda.

    Teams from ITM Power and BOC Linde are to commission and open a further four electrolyser-based H2 refuelling stations in and around London before the end of 2016.

    FCV pricing needs to come down by at least 60 percent and H2 refueling costs need to come down by half. Until then…


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