Honda and Toyota FCV World Debuts with Headwinds

Discussion in 'FCV or Fuel Cell Vehicle' started by xcel, Nov 18, 2014.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Honda FCV Concept to Debut at the 2015 North American International Auto Show

    The Honda FCV Concept will make its North American debut at the 2015 North American International Auto Show on Jan. 12. With more than a decade of FCV leadership behind it, the Honda FCV Concept shows off the company’s styling evolution.


    Honda stated it will launch in the U.S. after the Japanese intro scheduled for March 2016.

    The Honda FCV Concept features a low and wide aerodynamic body with a simple character line. The interior is larger thanks to a new downsized powertrain than the current Clarity FCV.

    All in, not much new here.

  2. Are you coming to Detroit again this year for the show?
  3. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Well-Known Member

    At least the Honda FCEV concept appears to have lower aerodynamic drag than most cars. The same cannot be said for the Toyota Mirai ...
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi James:

    Would like to. Want to go again? Was thinking about tasking Al and picking him up in Pittsburgh too?

  5. You know I'm available!
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The latest look at the Honda FCV Concept.

    A little more detail.​

    After more than a decade of Honda fuel-cell vehicle (FCV) prototypes and the consumer offered Clarity, the Honda FCV Concept shows off the styling direction of the brands next FCV that Honda says will be available sometime in 2016.

    As the next progression in Honda's dynamic FCV styling, the Honda FCV Concept features a low and wide aerodynamic body with clean character lines. The interior strives to achieve harmony between man and machine by taking advantage of new powertrain packaging efficiencies delivering even greater passenger space than the Honda FCX Clarity fuel-cell vehicle, including seating for up to five people.

    The Honda FCV Concept made its world debut in Japan on Nov. 17, 2014, followed by its North American debut at the 2015 North American International Auto Show earlier this month.

    Honda Fuel-Cell Vehicle Firsts:
    • The original Honda FCX was the first EPA- and CARB-certified fuel-cell vehicle in July 2002.
    • FCX was the world's first production fuel-cell vehicle, introduced to the U.S. and Japan in December 2002.
    • Honda FCX was the first fuel-cell vehicle to start and operate in sub-freezing temperatures (2003).
    • FCX was the first fuel-cell vehicle leased to an individual customer (July 2005).
    • Honda FCX Clarity made Honda the first manufacturer to build and produce a dedicated fuel-cell vehicle on a production line specifically made for fuel-cell vehicles (2008)
    Inside is an airy and modern interior.​

    FCV Concept Early Conclusions

    Clarity sales since 2008 look like this.

    2008 - 5
    2009 - 5
    2010 - 17
    2011 - 2
    2012 - 5
    2013 - 10
    2014 - 2

    Besides the high lease/purchase prices for the Hyundai Tucson FCV, Murai and Clarity, previous sales results lead to a very tough near term future for some of the highest tech automobiles on the road today.

  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Before selling a single FCV in the U.S., Toyota announced this morning that it will increase production of the Mirai FCV to possibly meet an expected near term demand given the stronger than expected pre-orders from Japan.

    The H2 powered sedan was launched in Japan on 15 December last year and will be introduced in the U.S. and select European markets later this year.

    The new plan calls for production to increase from 700 vehicles this year to approximately 2,000 in 2016 and as many as 3,000 in 2017.

    Toyota said the supply structure should be adjusted to reflect the level of demand for the vehicle, in view of around 1,500 orders being received in the first month of sales in Japan and the “prospect” of the model being launched in Europe and the USA later this year.

    2016 Toyota Mirai FCV


    Following the production increases, sales plans for Japan, the US and Europe will be formulated, taking into consideration the level of H2 infrastructure development, energy policies, car purchasing subsidies, consumer demand, environmental regulations and other factors in each region.

  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota Mirai Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle makes its East Coast debut at the Washington

    Washington, DC – Toyota’s H2 FCV, the Mirai, debuted at the DC Auto Show this morning where the company asked for government and industry stakeholders to help kick start the hydrogen infrastructure needed to make FCVs available to more drivers.


    Nihar Patel, Toyota's VP of North American Business Strategy:
    The all new Toyota Mirai has a range of up to 300 miles, takes about 5 minutes to refuel and emits only water vapor. It will go on sale in the US later this year.

    Patel also noted that with the expiration of the federal FCV credit last year, it will harm the fledgling whereas the PHEV $7,500 tax credit is still intact.

    Patel added that the company is partnering with Air Liquide to develop and supply a network of 12 state-of-the-art H2 stations in 5 states: New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island.

    These states and locations have been strategically selected to support the greater New York and Boston areas as well as provide the backbone of a hydrogen highway for the Northeast corridor.

    Hope you live next to one if you plan on owning one.

  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota’s Mirai FCV Makes Fast Company's 'Most Innovative' List

    Hi All:

    Toyota has been named one of world’s 50 Most Innovative Companies for 2015 by Fast Company magazine, recognizing the company’s leadership in the development and introduction of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.

    As Fast Company writes,
    The Toyota Mirai is the world’s first mass-market hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. Already on sale in Japan, the Mirai will hit U.S. roads in the fall of 2015. A four-door, mid-size sedan, it offers performance that fully competes with traditional internal combustion engines – but it uses no gasoline and emits nothing but water vapor. Yada Yada Yada… The groundbreaking fuel cell electric vehicle refuels in about five minutes and travels up to 300 miles on a full tank.
  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota, Nissan, and Honda Jointly Support H2 Station Infrastructure Development

    Hi All:

    Late last week, Toyota, Honda and Nissan issued the following statement with regards to their support for the FCV infrastructure.

    Toyota, Nissan, and Honda to Jointly Support Hydrogen Station Infrastructure Development

    Toyota Motor Corporation, Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., and Honda Motor Co., Ltd. have agreed to work together to help accelerate the development of hydrogen station infrastructure for fuel cell vehicles (FCVs). Specific measures to be undertaken by the three manufacturers will be determined at a later date.

    For hydrogen-fueled FCVs to gain popularity, the development of a hydrogen station infrastructure is as vital as attractive products. At present, infrastructure companies are making every effort to build such an infrastructure, but they face difficulties in installing and operating hydrogen stations while FCVs are not common on the road.

    Following the formulation of its Strategic Road Map for Hydrogen and Fuel Cells in June 2014, the Japanese government has highlighted the importance of developing hydrogen station infrastructure as quickly as possible in order to popularize FCVs. Consequently, the government is not only supporting the installation of hydrogen stations by means of subsidies, but has also resolved to introduce a range of additional policies aimed at promoting activities that generate new demand for FCVs, including partially subsidizing the cost of operating hydrogen stations.

    The three automobile manufacturers hope to both popularize FCVs and ensure that it will be easy to refuel them. Consequently, they have jointly recognized the need for automobile manufacturers to promote the development of hydrogen station infrastructure alongside the government and infrastructure companies, working towards achieving the aims of the Road Map, the source of the government’s subsidy support. The three automobile manufacturers will give careful consideration to concrete initiatives, such as underwriting a portion of the expenses involved in the operation of hydrogen stations.

    FCVs are expected to play a central role in the drive towards establishing a hydrogen society. Toyota, Nissan and Honda are aiming to contribute to bringing about such a society through ensuring the widespread use of FCVs.

  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    More on the Mirai…

    How the Future is Made: Toyota ‘Mirai’ Production

    In November 2014, Toyota ushered in the future with the launch of the Toyota “Mirai” fuel cell sedan, followed by the Japan start of sales one month later. Today, Toyota held a production ceremony to mark the milestone of a new age of vehicles at its Motomachi Plant in Toyota City, Japan.

    Production first started at the Motomachi Plant in 1959, and over its 56 year history, the manufacturing facility played a central role in realizing the dream of Toyota founder Kiichiro Toyoda: to foster an automotive industry in Japan and benefit society at large.

    The plant started life as Japan’s first dedicated passenger car production facility. It has been home to some of Toyota’s most notable models, including the “Publica”, “Corona”, “Cresta”, “Soarer”, “Supra”, “RAV4”, and the Lexus “LFA” supercar.

    The former “LFA Works” – where highly skilled craftspeople hand-built each of the 500 series limited Lexus supercars to some of the highest standards in the industry – has now become the home of the Mirai, just over two years since the last LFA exited the factory.

    This small but dedicated facility is now charged with producing the H2 fueled FCV sedan with an estimated three Mirai’s coming off the production line every day.


    Mirai production line: plant interior and parts selection - The assembly line for the Toyota Mirai is divided into three main sections: trim, chassis/fuel cell assembly, and final assembly. In each section, there are sub-assembly areas for parts installation. This video shows an overview of the production line as well as the parts selection process located close to the assembly line.

    Mirai production line: vehicle trim - Before each Toyota Mirai body is brought to the former LFA Works assembly line, it is painted at the mass production line at Motomachi Plant. The vehicle doors are then removed to enable more efficient interior work for Toyota’s highly skilled craftspeople, as well as preventing doors from being damaged. This video also showcases: wire harness, dash silencer, brake fluid tank, rear combination lamp, instrument panel, main battery, roof lining, and rear bumper installation.


    Mirai production line: chassis and fuel cell system assembly - The Toyota Mirai fuel cell sedan features a carbon fiber-reinforced plastic (CFRP) Stack Frame which is produced at the assembly area of Toyota’s Motomachi Plant, formerly the LFA Works. Following the installation of the fuel cell stack, the boost converter, hydrogen tank and tubes are fitted to the vehicle. This video also shows the hydrogen leak test which is performed using helium. Next, the vehicle’s fuel cell stack and hydrogen tank are installed at the same time, followed by preparation of the electric motor and marriage of the air compressor to the fuel cell stack. Before the chassis assembly is complete, the drive shaft, front axle, inverter, water heating unit, high voltage cable, front suspension, motor, rear axle, front bumper

    Mirai production line: final assembly - The final processes before the Toyota Mirai fuel cell sedan rolls off the assembly line are the installation and assembly of the external power supply system, vehicle interior, engine bay, windshield, and rear windows. The glue used to affix the windows to the frame is 8 mm high and 12 mm wide, applied by a highly skilled craftsperson at a consistent rate. This video also features the final interior trim installations, including: seats, doors, steering wheel and inverter cover. An ignition check is then performed on the vehicle before it is send for final inspection.

    Mirai production line: quality control and inspection - Detailed quality control and inspection is performed on the Toyota Mirai before it leaves the Motomachi Plant, on its way to customers. Toyota specialists use both visual and tactile inspection to ensure the vehicle is of the highest quality and without any defect before leaving the factory.

  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    2016 Toyota Mirai FCV Arrives!

    [fflash=left][/fflash]Reserving the Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell.

    The Mirai is almost here Toyota wants California customers to request one upfront.

    The Mirai H2 FCV consumes pressurized H2 and emits nothing but water vapor while offering an EPA estimated 312 miles of driving range from an EPA estimated 67 MPGe city/highway/combined rating.

    In just two days, Californian early adopters can request their very own Mirai by visiting Mirai. Eligible customers will ultimately choose one of the eight authorized California dealers for Mirai delivery. After placing a request, potential Mirai drivers will be contacted directly by a Toyota rep to discuss the possibility of Mirai ownership.

    The Mirai ownership experience includes three years’ worth of complimentary fuel, three years of 24/7 customer call support, 8-year/100,000-mile warranty on key fuel cell vehicle components and much more.

    This may be a tough sell early on but in 10 years, expect bigger things.

    Your take?

    As the first non-prototype 2016 Toyota Mirai's reach American shores, Toyota is pushing ownership of the Automobile 2.0. We will simply have to wait and see how the fuel cell revolution turns out over the intermediate term.

    And here they come.

    2016 Toyota Mirai

  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota Mirai FCV Pre-Order Day Has Arrived

    Hi All:

    This morning the Toyota Mirai California customer order request went live at Toyota Mirai.


    Production of the EPA rated 312 mile range Mirai is limited and vehicles will be placed with select, eligible customers. After placing a request, potential Mirai drivers will be contacted directly by a Toyota representative to discuss ownership and next steps.

    When Mirai begins arriving in October 2015, customers will take delivery from one of the eight authorized California dealers including Longo Toyota, Toyota of Orange, Toyota of Santa Monica, Tustin Toyota, Roseville Toyota, San Francisco Toyota, Stevens Creek Toyota or Toyota Sunnyvale. MSRP will be $57,500 plus an $835 destination fee.

    Early adopter choices include the following:
    • Trailblazer APR Support: 0% for 60 months + $7,500
    • Trailblazer Purchase Support of $7,500
    • Trailblazer Lease: $499 per month for 36 months, $3,649 due at signing
    The Program will be available to all qualified 2016 Mirai customers who have eligible orders placed in the Mirai Order Request system, or have taken delivery of their Mirai, by 12/31/15. No security deposit required.

    2016 Mirai drivers will enjoy a range of world-class services, including:
    • Three years’ worth of complimentary fuel
    • Three years complimentary Safety Connect and Entune, including hydrogen station finder app
    • Three years of 24/7 customer call support
    • Mirai Complimentary Rental Experience for seven days per year for three years
    • ToyotaCare no cost service plan and roadside assistance
    • No cost scheduled maintenance for three years, or 35,000 miles, whichever comes first
    • No cost enhanced roadside assistance for three years, regardless of mileage, including expedited towing service and trip interruption reimbursement at a maximum of $500 per day for up to 5 days per incident.
    • 8-year/100,000-mile warranty on key fuel cell vehicle components including the FC stack and power control unit; FC hydrogen tanks; hybrid battery pack and ECU; FC air compressor, boost converter and ECU; hybrid control module (power management control module); and hydrogen fueling ECU.
    Still a short term gamble and mid-term question mark but it has arrived with all of the ZEV credits intact.

  14. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    Neat. From the website it seems that Toyota really thinks they have to sell this thing on H2 safety. By wierd coincidence the topic of FCVs came up at the water cooler today. It wasn't too tough to convince a bunch of engineers that driving around with an armored hydrogen tank isn't so crazy when you compare it to the gasoline-powered vehicles that we all drive without a thought. But they had to think about it. ;) Maybe Toyota is right.

    I wonder what the "actual" cost of this thing is? I realize they'll sell for $57.5k but I'd be curious how much is subsidized just to get the tech out the door. Fuel cell stacks used to be insanely expensive.
    xcel likes this.
  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Tim:

    Given the few numbers, I suspect it like all the rest of the FCVs on the market today are still being heavily subsidized. I have never received an answer as to the cost of the stack, just that they are coming down in size and cost while longevity is going up. Never hear about capacity at 100k miles either?

  16. brick

    brick Answers to "that guy."

    You know, I never even thought of that. I found this DOE document [pdf] via wikipedia which seems to indicate 90% or better capacity at 75k mi. In terms of cost they project $47/kw for a series-manufactured stack. That seems awfully optimistic, though. Under $5500 OEM cost for the Mirai's 114kW stack?

    Who knows, maybe FCVs could actually be a thing. It has always been a chicken vs. egg race between vehicle tech and H2 production and infrastructure. But 10 years ago readily-available, practical EVs appeared to be 20 years away and yet here we are.
  17. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Oddly enough , most Americans would say that EV's are NOT practical yet. Or maybe not cost-effective for Walmart shoppers.
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Japanese Government support H2 Build Out

    Hi Edwin:

    They have limitations including TCO, costs of charging, pack longevity and probably the toughest issue, convenience while over the road.

    Nissan joins Toyota, Honda and the Japanese Government in an agreement of joint support for am H2 infrastructure in Japan.

    In addition to partially covering the operating costs of H2 refueling stations, the three automakers and Japanese Government have also agreed to help infrastructure companies deliver the best possible customer service and create a convenient, hassle-free refueling network for owners of the three company’s fuel cell vehicles (FCVs).

    The joint project will partially cover H2 station operation incurred by infrastructure companies. Financial assistance will be provided through the Research Association of Hydrogen Supply/Utilization Technology* (HySUT), which is setting up a project to stimulate demand for FCVs.

    Japanese H2 Refueling Station


    Summary of Joint Hydrogen Infrastructure Support Project supports operational expenses (personnel, refurbishment, etc.) for H2 stations selected through the Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center (NeV)'s. This support encompasses one third of the expenses defined by the NeV Project with an annual support limit of almost $90,000 USD/year per station.

    To help popularize FCVs with a reliable H2 fueling environment, the OEMs will work with infrastructure companies to take the following steps:
    1. Using H2 station operating rates to improve customer service levels

    2. Improving the convenience of hydrogen stations by increasing the number of hours/days they are open

    3. Raising public awareness about FCVs and H2
    For FCVs to gain popularity, H2 station infrastructure must be developed to ensure ease-of-use for customers plus lower constructing and operating expenses to operate. Low numbers of FCVs are will bring in minimal revenue.

    In June 2014, the Japanese government unveiled its Strategic Road Map for H2 and FCVs, which involves subsidizing the construction of H2 stations and reviewing regulations. In February of 2015, the Japanese government decided to partially subsidize H2 station operation expenses in order to help stimulate demand.

    Meanwhile, Toyota launched the Mirai FCV in Japan late last year and is releasing it to U.S. customers in weeks.

    Honda announced its plan to bring an FCV to market before April 2016. Nissan is planning to market an FCV as early as 2017.

    Through this project, the three automakers plan to steadily support H2 station infrastructure from a medium-term perspective, until FCVs become well established in the market and the development of H2 station infrastructure is well underway (potentially around 2020).

  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota’s Mirai FCV Arrives on the European Continent

    Hi All:

    The first production Toyota Mirai FCVs officially reached Europe this weekend, in Bristol, UK and Zeebrugge, Belgium.


    The first production Toyota Mirai – meaning “the future” in Japanese – destined for the European market has arrived to pioneer the next step in clean mobility, using H2 as fuel and emitting water vapor.

    The first five Mirai cars were unloaded in Bristol, UK and Zeebrugge, Belgium, respectively on the 8th and 10th August.

    After its first public display in Europe in March at the Geneva Motor Show, today marks its debut on European ground. Already sold in Japan since last December, the Toyota Mirai will be launched in Europe from September in the UK, Denmark and Germany.

    Mirai uses the pioneering Toyota Fuel Cell System (TFCS), which features both fuel cell technology and hybrid technology, and includes Toyota’s new proprietary fuel cell stack and high-pressure hydrogen tanks.

    Using H2 as fuel to generate electricity, Mirai achieves superior environment performance with no CO2 local emissions or pollutants while driving, and the same level of convenience and autonomy as liquid fueled vehicles, with a reasonable range and a H2 refuelling time of between three and five minutes from empty.

    Europe On Sale Date: September 2015

    Markets : UK, Germany, Denmark for 2015 with more markets beginning in 2017 as the H2 infrastructure develops

    Annual volume: 50-100 cars/year in 2015 and 2016

    Price : $72,824 USD + VAT in Germany

    Not sure who are going to buy the 50 to 100 cars right now?

  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Toyota Mirai Sips a Summer Classic in 'Fueled by Lemonade'

    Hi All:

    Don’t pour out that lemonade. Toyota and comedian Nikki Glaser have taken a humorous look at a potential fuel source – discarded lemonade from kids' lemonade stands. And the lemonade stand business is tough out there.


    The resulting video is “Fueled by Lemonade,” the third online video in Toyota’s multi-part “Fueled by Everything” series aimed at educating about the potential of hydrogen fuel. The campaign leads up to the arrival of the 2016 Toyota Mirai in select California dealerships in October.

    Toyota’s “Fueled by Everything” campaign was created with creative agency partner Droga5.


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