Steady State Speed vs Fuel Economy results

Discussion in 'General' started by seftonm, Mar 22, 2014.

  1. e90diesel

    e90diesel Well-Known Member

    Ping ping ring a ding.
     
  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi e90diesel:

    I will make another request later this week.

    Wayne
     
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I went out on Sunday night and collected the Speed vs FE data for the 2017 Honda CR-V AWD Touring Trim.

    Temps ranged from 58 to 60 degrees F with just a touch of wind out of the East during my NB/SB runs.

    The RPM at 60 is just 1,650 RPM with any slight rise or acceleration spinning the CVT up another 50 to 100 RPM.

    Actual speed as measured per the Garmin was showing .5 to 1 mph lower than actual at 55, 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    Regarding the offset, remember the CR-V has a new even worse capless refueling system so accuracy of the offset is totally suspect. I have never seen a Honda with a 3.3 percent negative offset in years and I suspect the offset is like the Civics and Accords, much closer to 1.0 than what I calculated over my std. 104 mile California drive loop.

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Capless Refueling Port

    [​IMG]

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Calibration Drive

    [​IMG]
    LAX Shell to Del Mar, Calif. Shell -- 104.0 miles/1.841 gallons = 56.5 mpg.​

    The aFCD offset was 56.5/58.5 = 0.966.

    2017 Honda CR-V Touring Trim Speed vs FE Results

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The EPA 33 mpg speed crossover occurs at 67.7 mph which is in line with its ratings. Again with the asterisk of a negative calibration which is probably to negative given our recent history with various Honda's. I wish I had the chance to drive over 1,000 miles to lock in that offset. :(

    Wayne
     
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  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Put better (more efficient) tires and wheels + 6mt on the CR-V, .. and the 70 mph steady state should be closer to 38 mpg than 32 mpg.

    (Civic sedan, touring + CVT 70 mph mpg = 41.6, .. Civic sedan, ex-t + 6mt 70 mph mpg = 49) (49/41.6)x32.4 = 38.2.
     
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  5. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    You can put lipstick on a pig............. but your friends will talk about you behind your back. Oh , and it's still a PIG.
     
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  6. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    10 years ago 38 mpg at 60 mph would have been outstanding for a smallish SUV
    But now
    1) 40 mpg at 60 mph 1/2 Dodge 3.0TD
    2) 30 MPG at 60 mph 1/2 ton Dodge plain jane 3.6

    What sort of RPMs is it doing at 60 mph?
    32 mpg at 70 mph-decent but considering Honda's history-nothing to write home about.
    Too bad Honda never built the V-8-their corporate scruples never let them build the engine we wanted(but Toyota had no such scruples-and they dominated because of it_
    I bet a little jewel V-8 3.0 maybe could match that mpg- dump the balance shafts-
    Oh well Honda always built the cars they knew we needed-not the ones we wanted-legacy of old man Honda I guess
    Toyota/Lexus defeated Honda/Acura because of that
    Charlie
    PS Yes this is a huge aside
     
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  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I added detail to the Speed vs FE post for the 2017 Honda CR-V Touring.

    Wayne
     
  8. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Or ... You can dress up a Civic as a pig, but that doesn't make a great pig, and ruins the Civic besides.

    Yes, it's ugly.
     
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  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Next up is a 76/76/76 MPGeUS city/highway/combined rated 2016 Mirai FCV and there are both caveats and asterisks to this one.

    Torrance Calif. Shell H2 Refueling Station Dismantling

    [​IMG]

    To begin, with this H2 station closed, my next bet was the University of Calif. at Irvine station about half way back to Carlsbad. It can only handle about 10 FCVs/day and pricing is $14.95/kg. Most H2 stations are at this price and doing the math at 76 MPGe (1 kg is approximately = to 1 gallon of gasoline), an EPA driver is paying about $0.196/mile in fuel alone. At $3.00 per gallon gasoline, this is equivalent to receiving about 15 mpg on a cost basis. Who is going to drive a 15 mpg compact car?

    With the lack of H2 refueling stations, I did not get to complete a calibration if the pumps read out in kg filled in the first place. I really wanted to get this first H2 fueling under my belt too. :(

    With an MSRP $57,500 plus an $865 destination fee, owners may qualify for an $8,000 federal tax credit, $5,000 potential California rebate, and $7,500 Toyota cash on the hood, plus California's HOV carpool lane. The 4-seat compact comes to $58,365 + $4,377 (7.5 percent Calif. state sales tax) = $62,475 USD minus $20,500 in deals for a grand total of $41,975. Fortunately Toyota is providing a $15,000 USD fuel allowance over 3-years so at least for the first 3 years you are clear of the fuel burden and either 0% for 60 months or 1.9% for 72 months.

    On the lease side, Toyota is offering the Mirai for $349/month w/ $2,499 at lease signing with a 12,000/year mileage allowance. The $15k, 3-year fuel allowance is also included.

    First drive...

    [​IMG]
    Non-calibrated 101.5 MPGe after 82.8 actual miles.​

    For the steady states, there was no calibration offset. The drive was undertaken just after midnight this past Sunday with temperatures ranging from 58 to 60 degrees F and winds calm.

    The indicated speeds at 50 and 55 mph actual per the Garmin were 1.5 long meaning. 51.5 and 56.5 indicated was need to travel at 50 and 55 mph. For 60, 65 and 70 mph, the speedo was 2 mph long. Meaning 62, 67, and 72 mph were needed to drive at 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    [​IMG]

    The EPA highway (76 MPGe) crossover came in at just 50.84 mph. This is the lowest EPA highway crossover we have ever experienced and a great disappointment given the great results we have experienced across the rest of the Toyota lineup. I had an inclination of this when I picked up the car and saw just 51 MPGe and 50 MPGe over 600 and 1,100 miles of previous drives. This is an ugly number and anyone owning one is going to have a hard time reaching the EPA ratings, let alone minimal refueling stations and the sky high price for H2 unless covered under the free fuel deal. If one were to purchase a Mirai outright and qualify for all the deals, its resale is essentially 0 after the third year since fuel costs will make it undrivable.

    Tomorrow may be the FCVs future but today, upfront pricing needs to fall by half, H2 refueling costs need to fall by 2/3s, and H2 refueling availability has to become widely available for the FCV to make sense.

    2016 Toyota Mirai final drive

    [​IMG]
    Less traffic on the pre-rush late afternoon commute from Carlsbad, Calif. to Toyota's former NA HQ in Torrance, Calif.​

    Wayne
     
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  10. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I'm not saying that fuel cell cars are a bad idea. I just don't see the infrastructure changing enough to accommodate this nationwide. Especially with our current " go , coal , go ! " administration.
     
  11. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    Long Island is ready for the Mirai
    Links:
    http://www.pointlookoutcommerce.com/wind_turbine_point_lookout_ny.html
    https://www.toh.li/clean-energy-project
    There is a wind turbine that creates electricity to run an electrolyzer that extracts hydrogen from water. Built about five years ago, it made it through Sandy and I see the turbine doing its job whenever I drive through the area. No idea what they charge for the hydrogen - it may be cheaper to run the car on oxycontin, but at least the infrastructure is there to create the hydrogen with no carbon emissions.
     
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  12. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 Pip and 2017 Prime

    I was thinking I wouldn't mind having a fuel-cell generator in my back pocket for future days. If I can get a used Mirai for $0, that would work. :) Just install more solar panels or other ways of harvesting clean energy and run the electrolyzer. On the other hand, charging up some batteries may be a better way to go, so the Mirai (FC version) could be converted to battery only.
     
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  13. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Or just buy a Bolt.
     
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  14. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2012 Pip and 2017 Prime

    You missed the part about doing it "on the cheap." :)
     
    xcel likes this.
  15. alster

    alster Well-Known Member

    My wife and I will stay with our 2016 Volt. Seems like the Mirai is a lot of money for no gain, infact, perhaps a waste of money. Toyota would have been better off to design a car similar that would be even more efficient than the Volt, with compact efficient batteries and a highly fuel efficent gas engine to make 50 + mpg just on gas a reality. A 100 mile pure electric range with 7.2 kwh or more charging, and 50 mpg when running on gas, they would sell. Its a waste of energy to make Hydrogen, its is more efficient to use the electricity, as it takes energy to take water and crack it for the hydrogen, more energy to crack it then you can get out of it.

    If you could crack more energy out of water than you put in to crack it , well, lets face it you can run the world just on water....
     
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  16. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    That would be akin to inventing a perpetual motion machine, which nobody is claiming. The point of the "cracking" is to store energy as hydrogen (albeit with significant losses), not to create energy magically.
     
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  17. alster

    alster Well-Known Member

    I still don't see the benefit of hydrogen, at least at this time. Not only is it a net loss to make hydrogen, its also is a considerable cost as well to store and dispense hydrogen, compare to say natural gas....
     
    xcel likes this.
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    From the first measured calibration drive of the 2017 Toyota the Prius Prime Premium (55/53 mpgUS city/highway) in Charge Sustaining (CS) mode provided a rare positive offset (104.7 mpg/102.5 mpg) of 1.021.

    [​IMG]

    The steady state drive(s) was undertaken just after midnight last night with temperatures ranging from 61 to 63 degrees F and winds calm to 5 mph out of the west while completing the northbound and southbound drives.

    The EV Mode drive was just over 27 miles and began in North San Diego and finished up in North Camp Pendleton on the I5. See result of the (2017 Toyota Prius Prime 65 mph Charge Depletion (CD) mode) test as linked.

    The indicated speeds at 50 and 55 mph actual per the Garmin were approximately equal to actual. For 60, 65 and 70 mph, the speedo was .5 to 1 mph long. Meaning 60 to 61 mph, 65 to 66 mph, and 70 to 71 mph were needed to drive at 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    [​IMG]

    The EPA highway (53 mpgUS) crossover came in at 72.8 mph which is excellent and should equate to a 54 mpg highway rating.

    The only caveat to the graph is how I was trying to account for SoC changes at 50 and 55 mph. The small decrements I was seeing accounted to eye balling about .2 mm above and .2 to 1 mm below the top of SoC baseline as the entire range of used SoC in CS mode is only about 12 mm tall in total with the range within the top 1.5 mm of that total height.

    I “guess”timated each .2 mm accounted for approximately 1.5 mpg added or subtracted from that speed and directions result. Again only for speeds of 50 and 55 mph as the 60, 65, and 70 mph result showed the SoC stayed relatively stable at the top of the small cross indent.

    Here is a close-up pic of the SoC display to give you an idea where the indent was and how I was trying to measure SoC at the recording of each final result at the given speed and direction.

    [​IMG]

    I am so stupid because if I had a ScanGauge-II with the latest firmware, I could have possibly seen the Prime’s SoC to 1 percent in real time making the 50 and 55 mph results shown much more accurate. Eyeballing .2 to .8 mm is about as close to a guess as I would ever attempt but I did record each result and where that SoC was sitting within the small display.

    Wayne
     
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Just like the first gen Gen III Prius PHEV-11 based off the Gen III vs. the Gen III Prius, the second gen Prius Prime PHEV-25 based off the fourth gen in CS mode vs. the Prius Two Eco Prototype from last year shows how much more efficient the MG1 Ice-Lockout Clutch is.

    Given the large disparity, it also makes me want to get a hold of a consumer release Prius Two Eco on this exact route for another full calibration and steady state drive afterwards so I know I am comparing apples to apples here. And a ScanGauge-II with the 4.15 firmware to cover the SoC range in both. The Prime handedly beat the Two Eco more than the similar EPA numbers would indicate.

    [​IMG]

    Prius Prime Premium (55/53 mpgUS city/highway) in CS mode indicated its 53 mpgUS EPA highway crossover came in at 72.8 mph which is excellent and should actually equate to a 54 mpg highway rating.

    The indicated speeds at 50 and 55 mph actual per the Garmin were approximately equal to actual. For 60, 65 and 70 mph, the speedo was .5 to 1 mph long. Meaning 60 to 61 mph, 65 to 66 mph, and 70 to 71 mph were needed to drive at 60, 65 and 70 mph.

    The Prius Prime in CS mode Steady states were completed in temps from 61 to 63 degrees F with winds of 0 to 5 mph out of the West on the multiple North/South runs.

    2017 Toyota Prius Prime

    [​IMG]
    Minutes before the EV mode and CS Mode Steady State drives last night.​

    Prius Two Eco (58/53 mpgUS city/highway) Prototype indicated its 53 mpgUS highway rating crossover occurred at 67.9 mph so the 53 mpg rating appears solid although with little room on the downside before falling 1 mpg.

    Speedometer at all speeds between 50 and 70 mph were one mph over the actual speed as recorded on the Garmin.

    The Prius Two Eco Prototype was completed in temps from 52 to 57 degrees F with winds of 5 to 10 mph out of the West on the multiple North/South runs.

    2016 Toyota Prius Two Eco Prototype

    [​IMG]
    Minutes before the Steady State drives early last year.​

    Wayne
     
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  20. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    WOW-
    20 or so years ago-before the tiny aero car Honda-
    no one in the world would have believed a 4 adult(pudgy USA adults 200 lbs+) comfortable car could get 60 or 65 mpg at 60 mph
    or 50mpg and 55mpg at 70 mph.
    In say 1995 an "average USA car" would get perhaps 25mpg at 60 mph- there were PLENTY of pickups SUVs that got 15-16 mpg at 60mph-
    Amazing-too bad gas is so cheap-
     
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