PIP vs C-Max Energi - Input Pls

Discussion in 'General' started by wick1ert, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    Hi all. I was in an accident yesterday with my 5 week old PIP. I won't know what the insurance plans to do with it until Monday/Tuesday sometime, but in the event they decide to total it, I wanted to get members input comparing the PIP to the C-Max Energi. I know that Toyota is still running the incentives they had last month when I got the PIP (Thanks Wayne!), and I doubt Ford is matching it. I figure I need to make the most of my few days before finding out what insurance is doing, because I may have to rush to shop before the end of the month if I stick with the PIP. What do you guys think as far as the PIP vs C-M Energi?

    I do a lot of trips under 7-10 miles each way, with my daily drive under 5 each way.
    Work allows me to plug in, although they could decide to change that if they felt a need.
    I have the L2, 16AMP charger installed at home.
    PIP 11 EV, C-M 20 EV
    MPG for PIP in HV mode is higher
    Handling and interior seems to go to the C-M based on what I've read
    History and Hybrid Reliability goes to Toyota

    Those are a few thoughts and some info that I've come up with. Thanks in advance!
  2. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Super Moderator Staff Member

    C-Max US built, PiP's 100% import.
    C-Max can EV up to 84mph, PiP will turn on the gas at 62mph.

    But if you're going to get your car totaled at that rate I'd suggest skipping a plug-in and getting a conventional car. :p
  3. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Sorry about that Matt, I hope everything is good with you.

    Do you want a luxurious, powerful, high clearance vehicle?.. if you dont care about those things get the PIP.
  4. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    The C-Max with the up to 20ish EV miles and higher EV speed has me intrigued. The additional EV miles would cover 90% of the trips I do over 10 miles r/t. But I've been hybrid for the last 6 years, and don't think I'd ever go back to conventional. The US assembled is also a plus, as it supports direct jobs here, also.

    Thanks. I'm good, went to a Chiropractor this morning though. Considering the most "luxurious" car I've owned was a Nissan Maxima, I don't get as concerned about that. The power isn't as much an issue, as the regular Prius was fine on the highway doing 75 with 3 people and a full trunk. I'm beyond the days of "needing" extra power, although I'm sure the driving experience would be more enjoyable possibly. The clearance could make a difference. They aren't exactly the greatest as snow clearing here (when we do get snow).

    Definitely some things to think about as I weigh the decision - assuming I have to make it. Thanks both for your input!
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Matt:

    The C-MAX Energi is a more comfortable car and its 20-mile AER is indeed a huge benefit over the Prius PHEV-11. Where it falls short is in three specific areas.

    The regular C-MAX storage cap is already questionable and the Energi's is a downright mess behind the rear seats. Fold the rear seats of the Energi down to get an idea as to what a non-flat load floor is all about as well.

    Next is the resale. A member went in to see what the dealership(s) would offer him for his 2010 Prius or his 2013 C-MAX. IIRC, the brand new C-MAX had lost more $'s in 6-months time than the Prius liftback had in 3. I might have the MYs and prices a bit off but the numbers were eye opening.

    And of course the real world fuel economy. The Prius PHEV over any longer distance will destroy the C-MAX and Energi.

    A bit more specific, at 75 mph, you will probably bury the Energi's pack in just 10 miles. C&D performed a steep climb in a C-MAX Energi from a full charge and it lasted 4 miles. While a steep climb is much tougher than a 70 + mph jaunt, do not expect much. Save the pack for the slower sections and you should receive 16 to 20 miles from it.

  6. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    Thanks, Wayne. I was hoping you'd chime in, as I know you have more knowledge on the 2 vehicles than I do. I'll really have to debate as to what I consider higher priority on the vehicle decision, so that I'm prepared in the event I have to make the call. I have to go back up into NJ (60ish miles each way) to get the PIP where as the Energi potentially could be purchased at a local dealer (although they have none at the moment and nothing in their incoming inventory list).

    I never run EV if I know I'm going to be on the freeway for any length over 2 or 3 miles in the PIP. I believe I lost around 20-30% range wise the last time I pushed it at 60 MPH for a 7 mile r/t - the battery was down to about 1 mile or so remaining. However, if I get that additional EV distance, it could affect my decision on some of the sections I do 60 MPH. Maybe once a month I go on a trip that would be solely HV mode on either vehicle. Usually 40-50 miles r/t, and about 4 or 5 times a year a trip to my brothers which is 120 miles r/t of easy driving. I've managed 60 MPG a couple times on that trip in the regular Prius. I need to weigh the local driving savings from the Energi vs the long distance costs. I'm thinking that as far as my sole costs, the Energi would be less expense in the long run.

    I didn't think about resale value. However, I'd plan to keep the car for 5-8 years, so at that age, you start to come together on the curve, I think. Who knows what'll be around at that time for me to look at :)
  7. Harold

    Harold Well-Known Member

    What about a Leaf just for work? H
  8. BillLin

    BillLin PV solar, geothermal HVAC, hybrids and electrics

    Matt, glad you're okay. Sorry about the bad luck with the PIP. What's with
    new Toyotas... accident magnets!

    So, you made your decision about the PIP not long ago. Has that much really
    changed that would give the Energi greater weight? True, the 20 mile AER is
    appealing and is probably in the sweet spot for a majority of people, but the
    rest of the time that you're running in HV mode, I don't see anything touching
    the PIP. If the PIP's AER meets your commute needs, you should end up like
    a great number of Chevy Volt drivers with superb use of EV mode and little use
    of liquid fuel.

    I had a chance to take the wife's PIP for a 38.1 mile round trip this evening to
    drop off medication for her father in assisted living a few towns away. I took
    all back roads and averaged about 30 miles per hour. Bottom line, taking into
    account the energy consumed from the pack, I figure the real MPG was about
    74. Indicated was 93 MPG at the end with .6 mile EV remaining. I subtracted
    3% from the indicated MPG and worked from there to the 74 MPG. That tenth
    of a gallon worth of electricity somehow does a lot to increase overall efficiency.

    I did an exercise (calculation) seeing the effect of a 20 mile AER and 50MPG HV
    mode for tonight's trip. The liquid fuel consumption difference would be
    less than .04 gallons, with the cost diffference being 33 cents in favor of the
    PIP ($3.50/gallon gas and $0.10/kWH electricity). I actually have a higher
    electricity cost of $0.15/kWh so my cost difference would have been even
    more in favor of the PIP. Fortunately, I also have solar panels offsetting a lot.

    All this is to say, in my highly biased opinion, if fuel consumption/cost is your
    only factor in the choice of the car, then the PIP would likely be the better
    choice for the driving scenarios you presented. :)

  9. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    I'd still need something for the other trips. At this point in time, the only BEV that I'd be willing to own would be a Tesla S, and that's not going to happen because I can't afford it. The range on the S would fit for essentially any drive I ever do, other than a road trip. I'd be willing to rent for those extremely infrequent times, or just make someone else drive. While I could probably work within the range of the Leaf, my brother lives 60 miles away, and if there's any issues with traffic, accidents, detours, etc, I'd be really cutting it close and that's more than I want to stress over.

    Bill - Not much has changed, but if the incentives happen to be gone and I have to get a vehicle, they go back on level playing ground. My ideal car is the C-Max for the non-driving related items (interior, handling, etc) and EV range, but the Toyota HV MPG and reliability. Assuming the rebates are in play, and they do indeed choose to total loss the vehicle, I'm at 95% sure I'll go back to the PIP. The EV range could become a different issue if I change jobs/employers (I'm trying to find something new, 5 yrs in my current one is becoming stagnant). But that's an issue that's still a "what if" and I can't live off that.

    As an update to all, the only issue today is that my back is sore. I went to my Chiro (used to go regularly as a teenager, esp after throwing my back out) and it was better. Then I did yard work for a few hours and bowled a couple games tonight. It's sore again lol. Tomorrow is attempting to fix the piping and a shut off for my sprinkler system for the yard. Some days it'd be nice not to be single and have to do all the stuff myself.
  10. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Sheez stay in bed!
  11. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    That's easier said than done for me lol
  12. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    Hi. Hope your back is good. Just read this thread. If misery loves company, I bought a new 2012 Camry Hybrid Friday, and hit a deer Saturday with 140 miles on ODO(had 60 when I took delivery!)
    Not major damage but front bumper and wheel well it attaches to had damage on passenger side. Bad news is my deductible is 1k. Good news is no one hurt or anything like that.
    If I was a betting man, based on Wayne's figures on March sales and inventory in NJ when I was looking a week ago, I'd bet even money the rebate will be extended on the PIP into May. Maybe not, but you may not have to hurry if that happens. Or may have a second chance if insurance adj. is slow.

    By the way, how did you like the PIP in the time you had it.
  13. essaunders

    essaunders Well-Known Member

    thanks for the comparison.
    the cargo utility along with the highway economy are more important than a few extra miles of EV (especially as I could just take the LEAF).

    Now, come on Toyota - when you up-rev the PiP, give us a PiP-V. A PiP-V with underfloor battery (perhaps a bit bigger that '11' miles?) would be great!
  14. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Essaunders:

    A Prius v PHEV-20 with an 8 kWh pack... That is what is called heaven ;)

    The v still needs a new modern interior but it is still my favorite Hybrid because it does so many things well.

  15. waltermlee

    waltermlee Well-Known Member

    If you had only one car - I'd get one with both good mpg over the longest range:
    that would be a PiP - its well understood tech, it's reliable, and gets the best MPG over the widest of driving scenarios...

    If you need more cargo space than a PiP - I like the Prius V, the VW Jetta Sportswagen TDI, the Hyundai Elantra Touring, Ford Escape hybrid used, the Honda Fit, and the C-Max Energi.

    The downside to bigger HV batteries (like in the Ford C-Max Energi) is the longer recharging time - which makes the EV mpractical for very long road trips (e.g. 700 miles one way) that require multiple recharging. Conventional gas and diesel only take a few minutes to refuel and this makes trips that require multiple fill ups practical to do in one day.
  16. wick1ert

    wick1ert Well-Known Member

    I really enjoyed the PIP during the time that I had it. It's much nicer than the 2010 Prius was as far as interior noise and driving harshness. Still the same "blah" interior, but I can live with that as long as the other items I enjoy outweigh it.

    How bout both the liftback and v as a PHEV-20? Then they'd have a much more beneficial PHEV range, and be able to say "nanner nanner nanner :p thbhthhbhghthbh" to Ford's C-Max PHEV range lol.

    I heard back today from adjusters, and they'll be fixing the vehicle. Estimate is currently at $8000, assuming nothing else is uncovered that needs replaced once they start to dis-assemble everything. 18 days until completion, again assuming all parts can be received without any delays. I'm in the process of transferring everything from my insurance to the responsible party's insurance so that I don't have to worry about any deductibles, etc.
  17. DaveJ

    DaveJ Well-Known Member

    From Toyota's 4.17.13 news release.....

    Between now and the end of 2015, Toyota will introduce 18 new hybrid models and expects global sales of its hybrids to be at least 1 million units a year in the same period. TMS forecasts that about one-third of those will be sold in the United States.


    So with 18 new ones coming in next 2 1/2 years, I'd be surprised if they did not have what you hope for in at least in plug in.
  18. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Toyota will have to compete with Ford and offer 21 miles of range in the V station wagon (it may have the room now).. hopefully Chevy will offer the Orlando CUV with a 40 mile Voltec but that will be a large pack.. eco Mommies everywhere want one.

    They found the room in the tiny Yaris so there is hope..

    It looks like we are going to have a bunch of electrics running around! :)
  19. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Not to hijack the thread but my Ford dealer has said he will offer me nearly what I paid in "real money" for my C-MAX towards an Energi. The only reason I am considering it is my wife has made it clear that when her Leaf lease is up she doesn't want an all electric car again(there was one time do to poor planning when we first got it she couldn't go somewhere she wanted). I would drive it until the lease is up and then give it to her. The problem is I drive at least 60 miles of mostly highway each workday. So the question is do you think the Energi is really 6 miles per gallon or so worse on the highway or were they just more honest. She really likes the C-MAX and doesn't want a Volt because it is too small inside.

  20. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    You know the Leaf will get 100 miles of range at 50mph.. but if you need to be a speed demon and break the double nickel then..

    The shame!..

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