Ford’s 47 mpg City/Highway/Combined Hybrid Ratings Ring Hollow

Discussion in 'Articles' started by xcel, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I think instead of saying that the C-Max was driven like a Prius, it would be more accurate to say that the C-Max and Prius were both driven like normal cars.
     
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    Higher speeds and the C-MAX EV falls apart as this comparison test clearly shows. I did not drive the C-MAX any different or more than I drove the Prius v or Prius liftback. My wife and son drove the same three cars in the same percentages in a mixed front to back as shown. Most of the time on CC in fact. The same was also found by every automotive outlet that was behind the wheel of the C-MAX. The 47/47/47 mpg ratings were a complete fabrication. As an owner, you should have figured this out by now.

    30 to 60 percent EV at 65 + mph? Post your display. It is the achilles heel of the C-MAX. Ford allowed high EV speeds but the drivetrain topology is so inefficient at those speeds - the pack lasts seconds, not minutes - it ends up detracting from the overall efficiency severely. Given your 47 lmpg avg., you are falling far short of many members in far less efficient automobiles.

    Wayne
     
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  3. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    That's exactly what I found on a couple of November trips (different years) from Massachusetts to South Carolina. With my wife aboard, we were on a tight schedule so we did the speed limit +/- 5mph. Many of the highways had a psl of 70. At those speeds, the C-MAX did not have many opportunities to slip into EV mode. We managed around 40-42 MPG average, worse the first year when I made no attempt to slow down. The higher numbers were closer to MA where the speed limit does not exceed 65. The C-MAX is not very aerodynamic. I have no doubt 50+ is doable at slower speeds.

    In comparison, MA-IL trips I took years ago in a Prius in colder temps and at similar high speeds netted 50 MPG or better.

    I look forward to seeing how the Ioniq and Niro do at highway speeds by normal drivers.
     
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  4. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Great! So... what was your average speed?
     
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  5. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Bill , what's a "normal" driver ?
    Also , who can tell me how Ford defines "EV miles" ? Anytime the engine is off and the car is moving ? Always seemed like a suspicious number to me. Also mpge.
    Of course, I always assume there's some sort of weird conspiracy behind practically everything.
     
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  6. MaxxMPG

    MaxxMPG Hasta Lavista AAA-Vee Von't Be Bach

    EV = "Extreme Velocity" - Speedometer pegged, tach in the red zone, smoking tires. You will see lots of EV miles logged by the typical drivers roaring along the roads of the northeast!
     
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  7. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    Sorry, I meant the average driver, such as the ones who may reside on the center portion of the bell curve of MPG stats you'd find on fuelly.

    Good question, and given the high percentage I typically see on the display, I think your guess is a good one. I suspect Toyota has a similar definition. On my PIP where I hardly use any forced EV mode, I'm averaging about 1/3 EV in around town driving. It's hard to say and I never really pay attention to that percentage, except when I was calculating real mpg on gas on the C-MAX a long time ago. The displayed MPG on the C-MAX is applying the fuel used to the distance driven, but the kWh used (C-MAX Energi) is shown as well so you can account for the energy pulled from the battery and come up with a much lower MPG for the gas portion. On the C-MAX hybrid, it is sufficient to calculate MPG the regular way at fuelups, but for the Energi, it gets more complicated and I don't bother. We do minimal charging and mostly off our home solar. However, that isn't cheap/clean energy either because we're only about 90% self sufficient, so the 10% is at the high utility rates.

    I'm not sure how useful the number is for plug-in vehicles, but for full EVs, you can imagine/figure out what that number represents. It's 33.7 kWh (I've also seen 33.4 used) electricity to one gallon of gasoline (100% gasoline, zero alcohol I presume). So with that, you can calculate the distance the EV can travel on average on one gallon equivalent.
     
  8. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Thanks , Bill. You have lessened my confusion. Also , I'd like to drive a C-Max sometime. Not buy one , just drive one. I imagine that it handles well and has a fair amount of "scoot". The only Ford from this century I have driven was a Focus , and it handled and steered like a dream.

    The only problem is , building the "best" HEV means you are aiming at a rapidly-moving target. Right now , that target is H-K , but you can never tell when Toyota or Honda will leap-frog them.

    That's also a reasonable hypothesis , Chris.
     
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  9. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

     
  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    2013 Ford C-MAX vs. 2013 Toyota Prius v -- Highway Test

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX at 64.2 mph avg. and 35.5 mpgUS actual.

    [​IMG]
    Paul's 34.7 mph city/suburban test???​

    A 64 mph avg speed vs 35 mph average speed in the former 47 mpg rated C-MAX highway is somehow comparable vs. the Prius v how? What are you trying to convince everyone of? You can get a significant number of miles without the ICE running at 35 mph vs. 64 mph? We all know this as it was pointed out during our first drive of the C-MAX in LA to San Diego Rush Hour back in 2013.

    2013 Ford C-MAX Review

    [​IMG]
    66.8 mpg over 100.8 miles displayed, 63.8 mpgUS over 103.0 miles actual. 67.1 EV miles between LA and San Diego at rush hour.​

    You are completing the math on your posts, right? If so, it is pretty clear you will not achieve Prius v efficiency from your once 47/47/47 mpg rated C-MAX as Ford claimed again and again no matter what you are doing. The same is true even today. The C-MAX offers some great attributes but efficiency was always its achilles heel. :(

    Wayne
     
  11. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    I'm just learning to post pics on this site and I wasn't finished posting when you Posted, so I'll finish here. I looked back through my Fuelly to find fillup with no City(it's hard to find a fillup with no city driving when you can go over 700 mi. on a tank) and Feb.19, 2016 on trip back from AZ when going from Albuquerque to Seminole, OK averaging 63.5 mph with two stops. So that works out close to 70 mph with temps 40-60*F(Winter time) Also 45.7% EV too, who said you can't use EV on the HWY.:). My record run was on SR roads which requires going through a lot of little city's and stop signs which kills your average speed, we were sight seeing for Lighthouses. I'm surprised you would say this given you have never told us what your GWR run average speed was, to me it look much better.
    Here my average for the last 4 months, 61%EV:) EV display only goes up to 999 mi. so I had to add up the thousands from my fuelup pics for Fuelly EV 4,469.5 mi . My Fuelly link:http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/c-max/2013/ptjones/163299

    Atleast to me it's obvious you don't understand how to drive a CMAX Hybrid which is OK, but I don't understand why you are giving a hard time because I do.:confused:
     
  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    You have said I do not know how to drive a C-MAX maybe 10 times now yet you have not achieved what the C-MAX did on its first drive through the worst traffic in the country. Do you know how to drive the C-MAX given your poor 44 to 46 mpg lifetime mpg? I am not sure how you are calculating the result vs. our actuals. This is about equal to my parent's driving their own v year round in Northern IL over the past four years and definitely lower than my former 24 mpg rated 05 Accord over 100k miles in year round Chicago weather and traffic. The second or third worst in the country? See sig.

    Low avg. speeds add more ICE-Off time. It does not matter if you follow state routes, stop, or drive light to light. By forcing EV at higher speeds with a let off, the charge is killing your C-MAX as your lmpg indicates. A lower rated Prius v at the time and today would consume less fuel in all of these realms.

    Your 63.5 mph drive starting from between 5,200 and 7,200 ft. elevation down to 890 ft. elevation allowed approximately 47 mpg actual result from a formerly 47/47/47 mpg rated vehicle. You are proud of that result?

    I feel sorry for C-MAX owners that have had to endure this! :( If the C-MAX was sold with its current 41/36 mpg rating, at least they would know what they were buying. In 2013 - 2014, they were fleeced. The Ford restatement payment helped take the sting out of C-MAX owners shortfalls but it did not lower the country's consumption when some C-MAX owners would have purchased a more fuel efficient vehicle instead. This is the real tragedy of the false advertising and restatement(s). Plural.

    The conclusions from the comparison test - see post #1 - are just as poignant today as they were when I performed these battery of tests almost 4 years ago.

    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------

    Feb. 25, 2013 -- Conclusions

    Simply stated, Ford’s claims of the C-MAXs superiority in city, highway and combined fuel economy over the Prius v per its EPA ratings in press releases and advertisements continue even with the number of counter claims provided by journalists, automobile reviewers, and anecdotal comparison evidence by some very important automotive media outlets.

    In this direct head to head fuel economy comparison between the Toyota Prius v and Ford’s C-MAX, the C-MAX lacks any credence for such claims. Given the various detailed tests spelled out above, Ford may be able to duplicate the EPA results but they certainly cannot duplicate the claims of besting the Prius v in the real world no matter an all-highway or an all-city commute.

    While the C-MAX brings a number of class leading attributes to the table as pointed out in our review, fuel economy and cargo capacity are not within that realm. In a nutshell, the Ford C-MAX is a nice 41/37/39 mpg - <-- Four years ago and pretty darn close to today's actual 41/36/39 mpg EPA rating if I do say so myself. - rated Hybrid offering but is a terrible 47/47/47 mpg rated one.

    Where this goes from here is anyone’s guess? I do hope that Ford begins a PR push to provide future C-MAX owners customer satisfaction by highlighting its strengths versus “We know we can pass any EPA test.” I do not really give a damn about passing the EPA test. I do care about four CleanMPG members that currently own a C-MAX and are frustrated to no end.

    Bob, Rich and Rick, thanks for purchasing a Hybrid as you are saving fuel vs. what you could have purchased. Just not as much as what we had all hoped.

    ----------------------------------------
    ----------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Is this lower rated rival from 2013 more efficient and roomy? Without question it is.​

    Wayne
     
  13. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

     
  14. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Ptjones:

    You can get 80+ mpg from your C-MAX? Of course you can. When you have more than a mile elevation fall from start to finish you should! And you still did not?

    Ford states the 2013 C-MAX is rated at 42/37 mpg city/highway today. In your glove box you find the original Monroney label when you purchased your car. Did you not know it was rated at 47/47/47 mpg when you bought it? A Monroney was posted on a large percentage of the drivers side window and the largest letters state the fuel economy ratings.

    You want to compare the C-MAX to the Niro? This is the way the next generation technology works. The C-MAX was and is not as efficient as a Prius v despite the OEMs continued adverts stating that as fact. The Niro is in a whole different league when it comes to fuel savings. It is a lot more efficient.

    Regarding Niro avg. speeds, 15 minute to 2 hour documentation stops every 1.5 to 4 hours with the car booted for much of the period to snap the numerous pics on multiple cameras, shoot video on multiple cameras, write up the written evidence in three different log books, e-mail the master log pic to yourself for a cloud documentation backup, and go through all of the required documentation of a refuel, avg. speed means nothing! We covered > 700 miles per day over 4 days between the Atlantic and the Pacific during the Niro drive including all of the required documentation. It took you days to cover just 900 miles and you were way behind the Niros efficiency.

    Your accusation that I wanted to achieve the lowest fuel economy in the C-MAX is nonsense. Your poor 47 mpg avg. in your C-MAX as the efficiency guru you claim speaks volumes wrt to integrity. How does running CC in a back to back comparison test 65 to 75 mph speeds including climbing over a 4,000' peak produce a 35.5 mpg result vs. the Prius v at 41 mpg on a back to back drive with three different drivers swapping between three different cars create bias? Go rent a Prius v, a Prius liftback, and run them back to back against your own C-MAX with three different drivers swapping numerous times in a back to back over the course of 350+ miles. Better yet, follow the exact same route. I posted the exact route in the first post.

    Now read the first post again and let me know how C&D, the WSJ, and CRs achieved even lower results during their review drives of the C-MAX? You want to read R&Ts, Cars, KBB, and Edmunds reviews from 2013 as well?

    Finally, Fuelly is stating the 42 mpg rated 2013 Prius v is more efficient than the 47 mpg rated 2013 C-MAX. This is exactly what was proven in this comparison test! Stating lies again and again does not make them facts so just. Are you taking a page out of Sean Spicer's book now?

    Wayne
     
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  15. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

     
  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Ptjones:

    You first compared your 35 mph drive over 900 miles and 60+ percent EV miles to a 64 mph comparison test drive over 360 miles. Next you stated your Albuquerque to Seminole, OK drive allowed 47 mpg at 63.5 mph. That is downhill by over 1 mile and you achieved just 47 mpg? Is there something wrong with your C-MAX?
    I need your help to teach me to drive for higher efficiency? Do you tell other World Record holders how to drive, run, throw, jump and pass too?

    I cannot wait for you to do a comparison test. We all know the 47/47 mpg rating was BS. Do you think the 47/47 mpg EPA rating was real or that the C-MAX is more efficient than a Prius v as Ford claimed hundreds of times in 2012 and 2013? Facts proved that not to be the case. Pull your Monroney and read it.

    [​IMG]

    I am also good friends with Daniel at MPGomatic. He did not achieve the 63 mpg actual 100 mile first drive during my review nor did he achieve the 75 max effort RT city drive vs the Prius vs 100+ mpg drive on the same RT loop one after the other either. Do you want me to link the the C-MAX Review for the fourth time again? Do you know the difference between a City, Highway, and max effort city test? Have you driven in the worst traffic in the country and achieved 66 mpg indicated/63 mpg actual over 100 miles? Your C-MAX lmpg is even lower than the 24 mpg rated Accord I drove for over 100k miles here in Chicago. Something is beginning to smell very fishy about your posts.

    I may be driving my parents Prius v through Albuquerque next month. While there, choose whatever RT or non-RT drive you want to drive with your C-MAXs title on the line. I promise to give you a ride home afterward with your C-MAXs title in my possession. When talking smack, you do not want to screw around with a more efficient car.

    Wayne
     
  17. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Oh Yeah ! What the F can he say to THAT ? Go, Wayne, go.
     
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  18. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    This is a YouTube video I did showing how to drive a CMAX Hybrid/FFH the way they were designed to be driven by FORD Engineers.
    .

    [​IMG]Here is Graph I did 4 1/2yrs ago at 70mph on a 14.2 mile I-85 FWY Loop using GPS. I made over 20 trips to create the two graphs at different temps, one without Grill Covers and other with Grill Covers. As you can see the CMAX without Grill Covers gets 43mpg at 70*F, not 38mpg. :) Interesting that when you do actual testing under controlled conditions the results are quite different.:)

    Paul
     
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    I trained some of the Ford Engineers and managers that designed the C-MAX Hybrid drivetrain! Thank you very much. ;)

    Wayne
     
  20. ALS

    ALS Super Moderator Staff Member

    Paul stop digging and step away from the shovel. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017

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