Ford’s 47 mpg City/Highway/Combined Hybrid Ratings Ring Hollow

Discussion in 'Articles' started by xcel, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Wayne

    First, I have no interest in getting involved with GWR, only in tips to get better FE driving the KIA NIRO. Here is an example of tips on how to drive a CMAX to get better FE that if you knew when you did the CMAX vs Prius V the results would have been quite different.

    1. CMAX is designed to run in EV mode only with 60 hp electric motors to a max speed 85mph and you can go from dead stop to 15-20mph like ICE car unlike Prius V and with twice the capacity HVB helps increase the range too.

    2. Drive using the Empower Display 2 Bar Power Acceleration Rule where the ICE runs the most efficiently and charges the HVB the fastest.

    3. When driving on the HWY you can use a mild Pulse and Glide strategy by accelerating to around 5 mph over the speed you want to cruise at then let off of the accelerator for a second for EV to engage then back on to maintain speed until HVB gets low enough for ICE to start then accelerate back to 5mph over and repeat.

    These are some of the differences between CMAX and other Hybrids.

    And because of not knowing these difference Wayne's Road Test comparing CMAX and Prius V is biased toward the Prius. When you look at real world driving look at Fuelly.com where there are 4yrs of testing of 150 vehicles each.

    This is from Fuelly.com today.
    2013 Ford C-Max MPG 40.58 mpg
    Based on data from 145 vehicles, 8,416 fuel-ups and 3,666,777 miles of driving, the 2013 Ford C-Max gets a combined Avg MPG of 40.58 with a 0.16 MPG margin of error. http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/c-max/2013?engineconfig_id=341&bodytype_id=3&submodel_id=
    2013 Toyota Prius V MPG 41.55 mpg
    Based on data from 153 vehicles, 8,660 fuel-ups and 3,233,635 miles of driving, the 2013 Toyota Prius V gets a combined Avg MPG of 41.55 with a 0.12 MPG margin of error. http://www.fuelly.com/car/toyota/prius_v/2013

    The more I read about the KIA NIRO the more it sounds like a Prius V with less space. Add to that it only has a 30 hp electric motor, 139 total hp and 0-60mph in over 10sec., sounds like a Prius V. It will be interesting to see what people think when comparing the CMAX with two electric motors for 60 hp, 188 hp total and 0-60 in 8 sec. We have many Prius owners that traded in for CMAX's. You would have thought KIA would have come out with a NIRO more sportier than Prius and still only 4mpg better. :confused: http://www.fuelly.com/car/kia/niro/2016/arska/534123

    Paul
     
  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    The results of a back to back between a 42 mpg rated hybrid and a 47 mpg rated one at speed tell the story about how one OEM severely cooked the EPA highway results while advertising how much more efficient their car was than the lower rated competitor. In actuality the lower rated competitor was much more efficient in all realms - city, highway, combined, and max effort. Except for max effort, there was no "technique" used as it was a simple A-B comparison just like anyone would perform. Both fuelly and EPA end users are showing the disparity. What about a vehicle rated at a fake 47/47/47 mpgUS city/highway/combined are you trying to defend? You cannot "believe" facts away.

    If you want to review technique, how did the lower rated vehicle reach > 100 mpg and the higher rated one only reach 72 mpg? Have you been over 72 mpg on your daily RT commute? I truly wish it provided more efficiency for its owners as well. The average fall > 20 mpg short which is a long way off the mark you described. :(

    When talking/writing about efficiency, consider listening instead of pontificating. There are numerous Lowest Fuel Consumption Guinness World Record and non-Guinness World Record holders here at CleanMPG.com driving turbo diesels, hybrids and non-hybrids that speak from a position of knowledge and experience. They also know the difference between facts and BS.

    You also appear to have a chip on your shoulder regarding the Niro. Did you know that Bob Winger, my co-driver during the Niro Guinness World Record drive, owns a C-MAX? He is trying to get rid of it so he can pick up a Niro. From efficiency, audio, usability, safety, and features, the C-MAX falls short. Those are his words.

    The Niro is a vehicle you should consider as it is much more efficient than your current ride. The rest of its advanced features may or may not meet your needs but that is for you to decide.

    Wayne
     
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Paul
     
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    Here is the link to this stories post describing what you want to read: 2017 Kia Niro Hybrid Hits The Road. After you read that post and the entire story, let us know what else you may have missed.

    230 mpg over 100 miles? Don't you have a 50ish mpg lifetime avg <-- I actually do not know? - in a 47/43/39/40 mpg rated vehicle? That appears to be a 150 mpg fall off with any temperature fall off. The members here are going to get a kick out of this. :D Bob may have purchased his before my comparison.

    Regarding temperatures harming the Niro's capability, every display pic posted - maybe 100 in this story??? - show temps alongside displayed efficiency along with my running commentary on it. Please read what I have posted instead of making up statement after statement to cover your agenda for the 4th or 5th time now.

    2017 Kia Niro Hybrid

    [​IMG]
    Refueling in Lafayette, LA.​

    I hope that helps.

    Wayne
     
  5. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    Why did you change Threads, I had info on NIRO Fuelly FE? I will comment more after reading your NIRO hits the Road Thread.
     
  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    The Niro story is for the Niro. This story is for the C-MAX. I did my best to separate them although they were to intermixed to keep them clean without deletion. Hopefully the links I sent you were sufficient.

    IHTHs.

    Wayne
     
  7. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    How do you do PM's on this site? I would like to Private Message Bob.
     
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  8. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paul:

    At the top, click on the Inbox and you can PM from there.

    Wayne
     
  9. Blackbelt

    Blackbelt Well-Known Member

    It's truly a shame that the Cmax didn't live up to it's numbers. Although it CAN be a fairly efficient choice, it isn't anywhere near what Ford claimed it would be. The plus side of this is that you can pick up a used one really cheap, which is not a bad idea if you are considering thirstier options. A co-worker had a Prius V, and had no problems attaining high 40's MPG. He loved the thing. Not sure what possessed him to trade it in on a Scion Tc, but he did. After a year with that awful Scion, he picked up a 2013 C-Max for $10,800, with 35K miles on it. He loves it, but admitted his best MPG so far has been 38. While thats a decent figure, it really should be about 10MPG higher.
    On a brighter note, i altered my route to work, and the last few trips in have netted me(according to the FcD), 62.7MPG for the 29.1 mile commute in my Prius C
     
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  10. all_about_the_glide

    all_about_the_glide Well-Known Member

    Wayne

    In the v and PIP how often are you neutral gliding vs. gliding by finding the engine off, no regen, no assist spot with your right foot? Coming from the HCH2, I'm having trouble holding glides with the latter method.

    Alan
     
    xcel likes this.
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Alan:

    A bit OT but my son drives the Prius PHEV-11 in San Francisco and it is my parents that own a v in IL. I use an N glide rarely as a little Regen/EV at the transition is not harming FE to much vs. a pure glide.

    IHTHs.

    Wayne
     
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  12. all_about_the_glide

    all_about_the_glide Well-Known Member

    Thanks Wayne...

    When I have the HSI in the glide spot and pop it in neutral I usually get more forward momentum the car feel like it is gliding easier. I really notice this on a roundabout near on my commute that sits in the middle of a 50mph county road, I have spots on each side of it that if I slip my PIP in neutral I can glide all the way through to the acceleration point on the other side. If I try to soft glide it feels like I use a small chunk of EV to make it to the same spot and have less momentum as I get back to speed.
     
    xcel likes this.
  13. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    In that case, where's the missing energy going, vs. coasting in N? If holding the HSI at its zero point means neither regeneration nor EV is happening, that must also mean the battery is supplying all power to the 12V system (and compressor, if it's running).
     
  14. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    If your friend is interested in improving his FE he can contact me to get tips to increase FE 5-15mpg.:)

    Paul
     
  15. all_about_the_glide

    all_about_the_glide Well-Known Member

    I'm finding it impossible to hold it at its zero point over that distance..so it's alternating between zero, regen and EV assist with all of the attendent energy conversion losses, which may not be much, but this is a small difference endeavor.
     
    xcel likes this.
  16. Blackbelt

    Blackbelt Well-Known Member

    Thanks Paul. I will pass the info on to him. He is one of our salesmen, so he does a lot of driving and can rack up a lot of miles.
     
    xcel likes this.
  17. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Scammers get booted out , but clowns roam the grounds freely. :)
     
    xcel likes this.
  18. essaunders

    essaunders Well-Known Member

    I rented a Cmax hybrid in Denver for 5 days, and put in about 500 miles. I saw a (car reported) 41.1mpg. That includes two trips into the rockies. I pretty much drove it like I do my 2007 Prius. I'm guessing I'd have seen ~49mpg in that car based on my experience.

    I like the EV at high speed and I'm generally pleased with the car. Just a pity the realworld MPG wasn't near the reported EPA numbers.
     
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  19. BillLin

    BillLin MASS: 2018 Bolt EV and 2017 Prime

    As Paul said, you can squeak a bit more from the C-MAX if you knew/used a few tricks. It seems like 2 different approaches to better fuel economy taken by the Gen2-3 Prius vs. the newer batch of li-ion based hybrids. I can't comment on the Gen4 since I haven't driven it. The Prius kept usage of the pack to a minimum and ran the ICE more efficiently as primary drive. The newer approach goes heavily into the pack and makes some gains through the longer ICE off time while running the ICE harder when it is on. Which works better probably depends on the situation and driver.
     
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  20. ptjones

    ptjones Active Member

    Now I have proof thanks to Wayne's great documentation in Post #1 there is a picture of CMAX Trip #2 display showing 359.7 mi. and 24.1EV this is what happens when you drive a CMAX like a Prius. If they drove like a CMAX is suppose to be driven using the 2 Bar Rule, Post #101 the EV miles should have been 150 miles at least and FE should have at least 42mpg if not higher. Same goes for the City drive of 22.8 miles with EV of 14.8 and should have been EV17mi at 75%EV mileage and FE in the 60's.:) FORD should have had Classes for Training New Drivers how to drive the CMAX.:) My last cross country to S. Carolina and back 930 miles, 656.1 mi. EV (70%) and 13.7 gal. for 68 mpg. Here is my Fuelly link: http://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/c-max/2013/ptjones/163299 if anyone is interested.

    Paul
     

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