Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-13 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    Hi Wayne,

    When I just keep it under 2-3 bars power at accelerating and not exceed 40 mph I get about 18 miles range so I wonder how you achieve this longer ranges.

    P&G and very slow acceleration? Thanks!
     
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  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Harold:

    While not a great looker, it is so functional to the point of being good looking. Catch that ;)

    Mike, I had to build the graph from an older version of Excel. I added cool best fit trendline as well.

    Luke, suede is what it feels like. The bio material feels pretty luxurious and I really like it. Did you say it was hard to clean earlier? The 14 Accord HEV I am in now has leather and I would rather have the cloth seating in the base Accord PHEV-11. The lack of XMSirius still bothers me however.

    To get the range, you have to fully glide on every downhill and climb with just 1 to 2 bars except for the steep stuff where 3 is needed and sometimes even 4 bars but back off the pedal as soon as you see that. 40 mph on the I-5 is an absolute minimum lower hard deck except for the maintenance lane stops for the pics. Use your avoidance techniques to keep people off your 6 and you can allow the speed range to cycle between 50 and 70 in the heaviest of hills without issue.

    Here is the Speed vs. FE chart. As explained earlier this morning, it looks like no other we have seen in the past with Honda's P&G'ing Li-Ion topography diminishing quickly as speed increases above 55 mph.

    Temps for the 50 to 65 mph Northbound and Southbound Speed vs. FE data was 66 – 67 degrees F with winds of 5 to 10 mph from the Northwest. The 70 mph bi-directional data points were completed in 56 degree temps with no discernible wind after traffic in Southern California had cleared.

    [​IMG]

    Linear analysis shows the Accord PHEVs EPA highway of 46 mpg (14 Accord PHEV) was crossed at 67.6 mph. Not bad and very representative.

    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2013
  3. Harold

    Harold Well-Known Member

    Gotcha Wayne! I would rather see this technology in the Civic. I hope it is the future. Next few years may be very interesting around Honda? H
     
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  4. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    To many of us, function IS beauty.

    Harold , I'm with ya. Honda needs to bring their best hybrid game to the Civic and Fit.
     
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  5. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Thanks for the steady state, Wayne. How many miles do you cover in each direction? And do you try to start and end at the same SoC?
     
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  6. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    Great info! Probably for my commute difficult to get much more mpg unless I use side roads since traffic is crazy around here (everyone speeds including trucks on all lanes pretty much).
    Not sure if you have used 'B' much. I use that when I have to slow down more or when going downhill. It does regenerate lot more but also slows you down.

    Will be interesting to see how the Hybrid will compare. Less weight but less recharge capability. Looks like PHEV is slightly more efficient than Prius at 50 mph but then gets less and less efficient. If I understand correctly the EV mode is used to change gear ratio since the ICE has only 1 fixed gear ratio (so no CVT by itself). Which would explain why at acceleration it will always use EV in addition unless I misunderstood this setup.

    I prefer the touch of the bio fabric seats as well but I think if I spill something it will be more difficult to clean than leather or leatherette. I think I could use scotch guard spray to at least make it easier to remove stains but since Honda warned it could react I skipped that. Just have to really careful I guess... Honda doesn't sell any seats covers either unfortunately.

    Thanks!
    Luke
     
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  7. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    Automotive news reported for the US:

    • Summer '14: Fit sedan hybrid
    • Summer '14: New crossover hybrid based on Fit (Vezel I assume)
    • Next Civic refresh : new ED engine (is that the '14 CVT setup?). Not sure if ED includes new hybrid system. Otherwise we're looking at next redesign

    Note no Fit hatchback hybrid but not sure how reliable this info is since things keep changing. The Acura TLX is confirmed by Honda for next spring and supposedly that would be next hybrid model with same Accord setup (mpg slightly lower with 45 mpg combined).

    The Fit hybrid probably will get highest EPA ratings (at least until the next Prius arrives in 2015.
     
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  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Impressive ss numbers. Outstanding at 50 mph. Thanks for getting those, Wayne.
     
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  9. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Yee- ha ! I'm not a big fan of small sedans , but at least this should be lower in height than the gawd-awful 64" or whatever the Fit hatch is , so co-efficient of drag and frontal area should both be better.

    Maybe Honda wants to let the market see that their latest hybrids (Accords) will actually WORK and not crap out (IMA) too early. I want to see then succeed , because I am a Honda guy at heart. But can Honda build something as sweet as a Prius c ?
     
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  10. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Re : Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    .... still trying to figure out the 65 mph to 70 mph mpg plunge [relative to prius and other comps].

    Body width and tires killing the high speed aero?
     
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  11. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I'd find roads where I can travel at 50-55 mph and no faster.
     
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  12. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Harold:

    I too would like to see this system in the Civic. It is elegant and hyper efficient below 55 mph where the vast majority of drivers actually average (32 – 35 mph).

    Mike, for this drive, 18 to 19 miles between flying reset and flying recording start to finish with an elevation the beginning and end of no more than 15 ft. To achieve a similar SoC without an indication in the PHEV-11 in CS mode, I would perform the flying reset and final flying recording at the EV to ICE mode or ICE-Mode to EV transition on both ends. The SoC at these points should be nearly identical even with hysteresis as it was the same transition on both ends before I actually recorded the result.

    Luke, I think you will find your results improve as time moves on. My last days with the PHEV found me estimating the SoC induced engine starts and shutdowns a lot better within a given climb/descent grade or time under EV or ICE-On modes.

    Carcus, you are welcome and it sure is an interesting chart. The falloff is more the size, weight and aero of the Accord vs. the much smaller, lighter and aerodynamically efficient Prius. Once that larger displacement engine takes over propulsion duties regardless of its 38 + % TD efficiency really sink it. Still more efficient by comparison to its hybrid peers but more in line with the their fall off at the higher speeds.

    Wayne
     
  13. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    At what speed does that typically occur, assuming it isn't climbing?
     
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  14. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    I don't think there's a set transition speed between hybrid drive and engine drive --it is engine load dependent.

    Ref. Development of SPORT HYBRID i-MMD Control System for 2014 Model Year Accord, Fig. 10 Comparison of fuel consumption of hybrid drive and engine drive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
    xcel likes this.
  15. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi RedylC94:

    It is indeed LOAD dependent up to a maximum of 75 mph after which EV mode is nonexistent. The EV mode light is lagging both on and off from ICE shutdown (0 RPM on the SG-2) and you can feel ICE-Off to ICE-On transitions as the clutch engagement/disengagement creates the torque hole and reapplication. The actual period when direct drive occurs however is not as discernible although sometimes I feel what I will call a slight bump which is when I believe direct drive occurs.

    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2014
  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Here are the latest 2015 Honda Accord Hybrid with the 2.0L I4 Pricing and EPA Data details.

    2015 Honda Accord Hybrid Pricing and Fuel Economy Ratings

    Column1Column2Column3Column4Column5Column6
    ModelTransmission2015 MSRP* ($USD)2014 MSRP** (USD)Price change from 2014 (USD)EPA (City/Hwy/Combined mpg)
    Accord HybrideCVT$29,305$29,155$15050/45/47
    Accord Hybrid EX-LeCVT$32,055$31,905$15050/45/47
    Accord Hybrid TouringeCVT $35,055$34,905$15050/45/47

    *Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) excluding tax, license, registration, $820 (** $790 for 2014) destination charge and options.​

    Wayne
     
  17. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    I'm curious: for those who bought this car back in 2013-2014, how has it held up over the last 4-5 years? How much capacity does the battery have left? What's its AER today? What kind of maintenance/repairs have you had to do and what were the costs? Looking around online, there are a handful of 2014 Accord PHEV's with 30-40K miles on them that are going for $18.5-20K. Would this be a wise purchase today in 2018? Is the Accord PHEV's hybrid battery plagued by the same issues as earlier Civic hybrids?
     
  18. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

    I only owned this car for about 2 years as I was moving out of CA and not serviced there. I had 40K on it without any issues. Maintenance was pretty much same as regular Accord. Although the AER is officially 13 miles, I got typically 15-19 miles. Nowadays that's on the low side so arguably Accord Hybrid might serve you as well, unless you want the HOV sticker. Note also I found not every Honda dealer was certified to service this PHEV. This was a very low volume model.

    I have now a Sonata PHEV for 2 years with much better range (about 28-30mi). No issues until month ago. Engine shut off with 'check hybrid system' and couldn't be started and had to be towed to nearest dealer. Took 10 days to fix (mostly waiting for hybrid module part). Not impressed with Hyundai service and I'm still waiting after 5 weeks to get towing costs reimbursed (they outsource that to another company). Also getting replacement car I found is not guaranteed and at discretion of Hyundai dealership. In my opinion Honda/Acura service was better and also cheaper in maintenance (less often and cheaper oil changes).

    One thing I realize with PHEV's that are only sold in few states, if it does break down in another state, then likely it would have to be towed all the way back. But newer models might be sold in more areas.
     
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  19. Chris12

    Chris12 Well-Known Member

    Luke, thanks for that report back. It hadn't occurred to me that servicing a low-volume PHEV, especially out of state, might be an issue - that's a good point. One of the 2014 Accord PHEV's I saw online is at a non-Honda dealership in Ohio, 400 miles away, so probably not the best idea. It's too bad Honda didn't just keep making this model, instead of building a PHEV variant of a fuel cell car of all things - the Accord PHEV was lighter, better looking, and (I believe) more efficient than the Clarity PHEV, based on what I can tell from the calibration/steady state drives in this thread. I hope they make a PHEV variant of the 3rd Gen Insight - with even just a 25-mile AER, a $20Kish price after the Federal tax credit, that would be an excellent car.

    Also, your recent trouble with the Sonata PHEV and Hyundai service seems to confirm some of the criticisms that Prius owners make of Hyundai's 'America's Best Warranty.' Some folks on Priuschat are like, yeah, on paper Hyundai has a better warranty than Toyota, but the trade-off is that you're going to have to take your Ioniq or Sonata into the shop a lot more frequently than a Prius and get it serviced by people who already have your money (what you paid for the car and the warranty) and don't have a lot of incentive to wow you with their haste or workmanship. This makes me a little hesitant about the 5 or 10 year reliability of the Ioniq PHEV - there's only 40 of them for sale in the entire US on cars.com, it's a brand new model, Hyundai doesn't exactly inspire the same confidence as Toyota in terms of reliability, so how well will the Ioniq PHEV realistically hold up over the next 5-10 years, how often will they be in the shop, etc.?
     
    BillLin likes this.
  20. Luke

    Luke Well-Known Member

    Not sure how it ended up in Ohio as I think it was only sold in CA and NY. If something breaks unique to PHEV system it would be an issue it seems.

    Besides Accord, I'd like to see PHEV model for new RDX 2019 but so far Honda has been lagging behind other carmakers and probably won't even offering a hybrid. Note cargo space in Accord PHEV is very small (Sonata is decent). That was one downside but I used rear seats as extra cargo space.
    I'm also not fond of Clarity exterior design (I've seen a few now). But also that gas tank I find too small, limiting total range. Accord PHEV had a great total range (about 600 mile I believe). For longer trips it's big plus. The Clarity AER though is great and fine if you only make small trips. Also cheaper than Accord PHEV.

    Hyundai appears to be pretty reliable except potentially Hybrid/PHEV system. It's possible Hyundai PHEV reliability will improve, but main issue I found was customer service. At Hyundai, dealerships, roadside assistance, towing reimbursement (outsourced insurance company) and HQ are all separate entities and they just blame the next one. I asked HQ for status on the $600 towing reimbursement and they said different department and phone number. And unlike Honda/Acura there's no survey (so far) to ask about the experience. Also getting a replacement car was difficult. They were reluctant to pay for rental car but eventually did (since HQ doesn't cover that weird enough despite warranty).

    One other downside so far for Hyundai I found is maintenance cost (although I haven't driven as many miles yet). Maintenance is more frequent at 4.5K (instead of 6.5K at Honda) and the costs are higher for larger services. So far still my best experience was at Acura so might one day switch back to that brand. They just need to offer more hybrid/PHEV options I hope.
     
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