Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-13 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    The 2014 Honda Accord PHEV-13 arrived with a full tank and 7.9 miles of EV range showing. I drove 16 miles before the EV range dropped to 0.0 and the ICE first lit off as the car began charge sustaining mode. I drove another 2 to 3 miles to make sure as well.

    On its initial top off, it took over 4 gallons with 2.7 after first click. In other words, the 14 Accord PHEVs 12.2 gallon spec tank probably holds closer to 15 gallons from top off. The PHEV-11 with no charge depletion mode capability is essentially an Accord HEV other than the PHEVs extra weight and lower EPA of 47/46/46 mpgUS city/highway/combined rating vs. the HEVs 50/45/47 mpgUS city/highway/combined rating. The PHEV has a 1 mpg higher highway rating than the HEV which in this case, actually helped the PHEV given the mostly highway drive shown below.

    2014 Honda Accord PHEV-13 Review

    [​IMG]
    Initial top off at a Shell on Westminister Blvd. and the I-405 in Inglewood, CA.

    [​IMG]
    98.3 miles from Inglewood Shell to the Encinitas Shell.

    The I-405 was shut down near Long Beach and detoured down Studebaker to 2nd street and back to the I-405 adding a few miles of city. I saw the aFCD breach 85 mpg in that stretch before falling back to the low 80’s when finishing off the last 50 + miles on the I-405/I-5.

    The Final Results

    [​IMG]
    Shell on Leucadia Ave. and the I-5 in Encinitas, CA. -- 98.3 miles/1.218 gallons = 80.7 mpgUS actual.​

    In any case, while pushed to its limits in 60 to 64 degree temps and no wind, I do not believe the 14 Prius HEV or even my own 13 Prius PHEV-11 (48 and 49 mpg highway respectively) could achieve the same? It would be really really close and the Accord is a much larger, capable and better equipped car. Still not quite as capable as the 43 mpg highway rated 12, 13, and 14 VW Passat TDI with a stick or B-segment Prius c, the Accord PEHV-11 as an HEV would quite literally bury the 13 and 14 Fusion Hybrid and Energi PHEV, 12, 13 and 14 Camry HEV and 11, 12, 13 and 14 Sonata HEV. That is saying something although for $39,780 incl. D&H, it is to expensive for actual consideration other than those willing to pay up for HOV lane access.

    Next up, the PHEV-13s all-electric range (AER) capability.

    Wayne
     
  2. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    Honda really nailed it, hopefully this will send a lot of manufacturers back to the drawing board. The Accord is probably my favorite hybrid now, except for its price.

    EDIT: It's now up on Honda.ca and pricing isn't as bad as I thought. Less than $1k more than the American version, and around $2k more than a Camry Hybrid here. Not bad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    2014 Honda Accord PHEV-13 Review – Its All-Electric Range (AER)

    [​IMG]
    First full charge begins just off Del Mar Heights Road and Carmel Country Road in Northern San Diego. 21.5 EV mile range displayed after the previous nights 80.7 mile charge sustaining mode only drive from LAX to Northern San Diego.

    [​IMG]
    Charge Depletion EV mode disappeared after 20.8 displayed miles/21.0 actual miles.​

    The Accord PHEV-13 like the Prius PHEV-11 and Volt still had another .5 + miles of AER left before first engine start.

    [​IMG]
    100.1 mpg after 90.4 miles displayed -- 98.4 mpg after 91.1 miles actual.​

    Somewhere around the 90 mile out mark from Northern San Diego on the way to the Nissan of Downtown LA just down from the LA Convention Center and the LAAS, the Accord PHEV-13 dropped below 100 mpg.

    [​IMG]
    Arriving at Nissan of Downtown LA for a charge after 110.4 miles displayed/111.3 actual miles and 96.2 mpgUS displayed/94.6 mpgUS actual.

    [​IMG]
    Charging at Nissan of Downtown LA as a benefit of EV users everywhere.​

    Thank you Kurt Smith of Nissan of Downtown LA for permission to charge at your dealership yesterday. Both during the show and much later that night for a second full charge. More on that later.

    This is what the PHEV is supposed to do. Locally, all-electric and even over lengthy day drive distances, that small all-electric range provides a serious boost to your every day fuel economy reducing pain at the pump by a large margin. With Southern California gas stations charging about $3.50 per gallon currently and electricity at around $0.12/kWh all in (3 kWh charge) , the total cost to drive 110 miles was just $4.50. An average new car at 25 mpg would drive the same distance at $15.40.

    Wayne
     
  4. ksstathead

    ksstathead Moderator

    Toyota needs to get the Gen4 out ASAP. Good going, Honda.

    Look forward to steady state chart.
     
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Mike:

    I would have to agree. All the comforts we have come to expect from a midsize with the best hybrid powertrain I have driven to date. It P&Gs its ICE and (2) Electric MGSets at low and intermediate speeds with only a slight torque reduction and reapplication while the clutches engage/disengage allowing the ICE to come back online. It feels very much like the first gen Insight dropping out of Lean burn with the resultant higher power output and the power reduction when Lean burn returned.

    It is easily worth $2K more than a Camry hybrid given both its higher FE capability and standard amenities (Canadian purchase) but it is not worth $4 to $8K more than the Toyota Camry Hybrid or Hyundai Sonata Hybrid as they can be purchased in the US today.

    One severe miss is the lack of XM/Sirius Sat capability on the base almost $40,000 14 Accord PHEV-11. Nothing costing $40K should lack XM/Sirius.

    Another miss is the NAVI. It does not have a standard PSL display that I have found yet. No N-S other than a very small compass like mimic as well. It's directions are not quite as good as a Garmin either.

    Wayne
     
  6. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    How 'bout a typically equipped ordinary new Accord, driven with the same regard for efficiency? Maybe $8-9 or so?
     
    xcel likes this.
  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Ksstathead:

    My thoughts too. I was surprised at how efficient the serial hybrid action is. I suspect however that that the higher speed Speed vs. FE chart will show a darker side. Jesse spent some time in a standard 14 Accord Hybrid doing some 65 mph steady states and is seeing 42 to 43 mpg displayed results or about 42.5 mpgUS actual in colder East Coast temps. That is far below its 45 mpgUS rating at a speed where it should beat its EPA highway rating.

    It has been raining lightly on and off in the LA to San Diego area for over 24-hours now so I will probably have to wait until tonight or tomorrow to knock out some steady states.

    Wayne
     
  8. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Wayne,

    Honda's "Development of SPORT HYBRID i-MMD Control System for 2014 Model Year Accord" mentions when driving at medium speeds, fuel economy is maximized by intermittent operation that switches between EV drive / Hybrid drive or between EV/ Engine drive. .... [A cousin to P&G?]

    Do you think Honda has an advantage over the PIP here?

    /(ref Honda R&D papers I linked at the end of the Accord Hybrid drivetrain thread)
     
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi RedylC94:

    My 05 Accord with its LMPG of 48.5 would probably be a good proxy for a 2013 Accord with the CVT. We drove it to slightly higher numbers earlier this year. The 2014 Accord Hybrid would be in the 65 mpg range if the PHEVs results are any indication. This thing is really efficient and I suspect unlike the 05 - 07 Accord Hybrid, this will actually hold a higher resale than the non-hybrid SE.

    Carcus, the 14 Accord PHEV/HEV P&Gs all the time and is one of its best attributes for higher low to mid-speed FE improvement. Toyota's HSD is at a severe disadvantage above 47 mph by comparison but closer at low speed. In either case, the Camry/Prius will not be able to keep up with the Honda at mid load/mid speed up to about 60 mph. The higher load speeds (not just higher speeds while DWL downhill) may be the Accord PHEV/HEVs undoing. I will try and get some of those details out of the way very soon. Early next week I turn in the Accord PHEV and pick up the Accord HEV to do it all over again. Not the calibration as both will be the same but the results by comparison will be very interesting to me.

    Wayne
     
  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Back to that NAVI... It has 120 and 240V locations built into the POIs but...

    After leaving the Audi party with just 3-miles of AER still left in the 14 Accord PHEV, I decided to do another full charge before leaving the LA area. I went to the 10 nearest locations for 240V charging stations. I should have simply driven the 7.4 miles back to Nissan of downtown LA and be done with it but what the heck, let us see how the NAVI guide works.

    The first 6 locations were parking garages. Some open and some not. With minimum charges of $3 to $10 just to drive in and only the possibility that a charger was really in those that were open, no damn way was I going to do that. The nearest 240V's were heading towards Santa Monica. Next up was a Toyota dealership. Found the charging station and it was behind a chain locked across the dealerships new car lot. Next up was a Nissan dealership in Santa Monica. Apparently they moved to a new location because the building was vacant. Next up was the Santa Monica municipal building. Not sure what the fee was to park in their lot but their Free charging station sat behind a pay parking gate. For < 3 kWh, I am not going to pay a few $'s. Keep going. Next up was a Blue Electric Charging Station sign on I-10 West. I followed it to a closed street. About 1 mile away was another charging station location form the NAVI. I pulled in with Honda's Charge Point key fob tag and swiped it. It said only good for free charging and to call some number... Why do I have a Honda supplied Charge Point key fob tag if its only good for free charging stations??? The two Blink stations were next to it but I did not have a Blink station card and no way to swipe a CC in any of the three chargers.

    I saw another Blue Charging Station sign on the I-10 while heading back towards downtown but after my last ordeal, why even try to find it. Instead, I drove all the way back to Nissan of Downtown LA again for that 11-mile charge and maybe 20 miles of AER.

    From plugging in with a flat pack at about midnight to full charge took about 50-minutes.

    While heading to downtown LA, the NAVI routed me onto surface streets.

    Day one on my way to the LAAS and just after 09:00 AM, the Accord NAVI had me driving over 15 miles of LA surface streets to supposedly avoid congestion. I could see the Interstates above were not slowing much below 20 mph and you are not going to make up that avg. speed on surface streets in LA no matter what streets you take or the time of day. I did this the second morning somewhat and again, it was a mistake so I got back on the Interstate routes at the next opportunity a few miles down and worked with traffic to get to downtown faster than surface streets would have allowed. So I am not trusting NAVI at this point.

    Early this morning after the full charge, I headed south… The NAVI wanted me to take another Interstate and a surface street only to catch the I-5 again about 10 miles later? I was thinking no way, not again. Less than a mile later, the Interstate stopped as 4 or 5 lanes were being routed to one for overnight road construction. After 45-minutes of stop and crawl, it finally began moving. In this case I should have followed the NAVI.

    If I were an out of town BEV owner, I would be frustrated to no end and this is a BEV haven! Imagine what its like in New York, Chicago, Houston, Miami, or Boston???

    Wayne
     
  11. Blake

    Blake Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    Wayne,

    I've noticed that the few places around here that have free charging stations there usually a huge pickup truck or suburban parked in the space. I'm assuming its because those spaces are typically near the front doors of the businesses and the owners can't be bothered to walk 30 extra feet to leave those spots open for actual BEV's. Have you seen this issue on your voyages?
     
    xcel likes this.
  12. They gave you one of the free stations only chargepoint cards???



    Most chargepoint stations around here - you can use a cc if it has a chip in it. So far I've only charged at free ones
     
    xcel likes this.
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    2014 Honda Accord PHEV-13 Review – Real World Results

    [​IMG]
    55.0/54.1 mpgUS displayed/actual. Marian driving home from her new work location in Charge sustaining mode.​

    With Marian behind wheel driving her typical work to home work commute including a stop at a grocery store, the Accord PHEV allowed a 54.1 mpg result. In her Prius PHEV-11, also with no charge, under the same I5 commute from Carlsbad to San Diego, she would be lucky to reach 50 mpg.

    The NAVI’s propensity to guide across downtown LA surface streets is not a good idea.

    [​IMG]
    The Palace Movie Theater in downtown LA.

    [​IMG]
    The Orpheum Theater in downtown LA..​

    Driving around LA, West Hollywood, and Santa Monica last night looking for a 240V charging station using the onboard NAVI guidance.

    [​IMG]
    A well known location...​

    Wayne
     
  14. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Blake:

    I am not seeing charging stations anywhere around here. If you have local knowledge, I am sure you will be ok but if you are not a local, this is not a good situation.

    James, yup. A free only Chargepoint card. Why have a card is my question?

    Last night we had to make a run back to Marian’s work as she left her purse there. With a full charge, I could get the Accord PHEV-13s to work result with her behind the wheel to compare to the Prius PHEV-11. The Prius PHEV normally achieves 71 mpg on the round trip commute (74 mpg displayed).

    The other day I picked Marian up from work and had her drive home without a charge. Her displayed result shown a few posts above was 55.0 mpg over 16.4 miles or 54.1 mpg over 16.8 miles actual.

    Last night from a full charge we took off with her behind the wheel in lousy conditions. Raining hard with a headwind of between 5 and 10 mph and in 59 degree temps. Not normal for southern California but a good test to compare against our Prius PHEV-11.

    At the 13.8 mile mark, the Accord PHEV dropped into charge sustaining mode. Not bad as Marian is one of the most unsteady faster drivers I know. We arrived at her work location with the aFCD displaying 165.7 mpg over 16.4 miles.

    2014 Honda Accord PHEV-13 Review

    [​IMG]
    To Work: 165.7 mpg over 16.4 miles displayed = 162.9 mpg over 16.5 miles actual or 0.1013 gallons
    From Work: 55.0 mpg over 16.7 miles displayed = 54.1 mpg over 16.8 miles actual or 0.3105 gallons​

    The final result? 33.3 miles on .4118 gallons = 80.865 mpg. It is even more efficient than the Prius PHEV. I do not have a Killawatt here to measure the electrical input but I am assuming it is really close to the Prius PHEVs almost 3 kWh. A minor delta given it costs just $0.40 for those 11 mile range from either vehicle.

    [​IMG]
    The 14 Accord PHEV in the rain heading to dinner after the work commute drive last night.​

    Wayne
     
  15. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    A guy could probably ask directions from some homeless dude and get a better result than most navigation systems.

    I know............... they do come in handy , but I'd hate to have to rely on them for accurate results.
     
    xcel likes this.
  16. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x97L4-swkis&desktop_uri=/watch?v=x97L4-swkis

    [flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/x97L4-swkis?version=3[/flash]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2013
    xcel likes this.
  17. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Carcus , I'm at work now , so I can't access that video , but I wanna check it out later today !
     
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Edwin:

    Carcus' link is a Vid of the day for sure!!! :D

    Wayne
     
  19. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    Re: Honda’s 2014 Accord PHEV-11 Dives Deep into CARB LEV-III

    PlugShare, for finding charging locations around the country. It has a website and an app for your phone. It will even show people's houses that will let you plugin.

    Wayne, I don't understand how the mpg calculations work when we combine EV mode miles with hybrid mode miles. I would think if you go 16 miles in the 2014 Accord, and 13 are in EV, that you would be much higher than 165 for that trip. The last 3 miles you'd be getting 50 or so mpg. So I would think you'd only use .06 gal. That's 266 mpg. But it is true that when the engine starts, it sometimes is aggressive during warmup.

    I bet you could get all 16 miles in EV in my Energi. Find a plugin at work, and get home in EV as well. I did that this month. Overall I drove 1000 miles, and 900 were in pure EV mode. It's been clod and my ICE is aggressive in warmup, so I used 4 gals gas when I filled up yesterday. But that is still 250 mpg over 1000 miles commuting.

    I'm really excited you think the Honda can beat the Prius in hybrid mode. Does that mean you can set some new records using the Accord? It seems like a game changer for the hybrid market. I want to drive one.
     
    xcel likes this.
  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi CmaxVsPrius:

    I am not really providing an EV and HEV mixed mode fuel consumption number to compare against any particular vehicle on any given commute. What I did was compare the 14 Accord PHEV-11 our Prius PHEV-11 on the same RT commute. It was meant to show a somewhat real world comparison between the two. On this particular work commute, the Prius PHEV-11 is a 71 mpg RT achiever including the single 2.9 kWh addition from the plug. The 2014 Accord PHEV-11 is an 81 mpg achiever on the same work commute including the single ~ 2.9 kWh addition from the plug. I do not have a Killawatt here to measure the Accord PHEV's power uptake so I am assuming it is similar? In either case, given the cost of electricity, even if the Accord PHEV consumed 3.3 kWh vs. the Prius PHEVs 2.9 kWh, you are talking less than a nickel per day so it comes down to fuel consumed. In this comparison, I have to hand it to Honda for building a better mouse trap.

    Wayne
     

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