C-MAX and Fusion Hybrid starting to get bad press

Discussion in 'Ford' started by Paymaster, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. priusCpilot

    priusCpilot George

    CR says in testing the C and lift-back fell short as well. You look at fuelly and larger majority are getting EPA and better. You look at C-Max and Fusion and its far less. This is the real world test if you ask me.
     
  2. CRT1

    CRT1 Newbie McNewbster

    Before these hit the streets I thought it strange that Ford could outdo Toyota with their own technology (Aisin). Turns out they can't.

    I still salivate over a C-Max or Fusion Energi, tho.
     
  3. rfruth

    rfruth Well-Known Member

  4. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  5. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    The C-Max is too sporty for its own good..
     
  6. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    If Ford "gamed " the EPA - and I'm not saying they did - a big portion of the blame should go to the EPA testing procedures. AFAIK , they have never released the magic formula for how they combine the results from five tests into two vague numbers. I also blame the car-buyers who fail to educate themselves about the realities of these tests.
    When I am crowned King of this country , I will decree that all mfr's must publish unadjusted results for ALL FIVE TESTS ( plus an 80MPH cc result) and let consumers interpret these results however they like. Cuz you just know that some of these whiners are basing their results on a lot of 2.9 mile trips to WalMart. The EPA cannot duplicate your typical commute in a test procedure. They just can't.
    We as consumers MUST read the fine print in these tests and use the results for COMPARISON PURPOSES.

    I have spoken.
     
  7. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Edwin I, you are not making an 80mph ticket a mandatory trip to a re-education camp?*

    *AKA Obama I Excellence in Education Center
     
  8. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Cuz you just know that some of these whiners are basing their results on a lot of 2.9 mile trips to WalMart. The EPA cannot duplicate your typical commute in a test procedure. They just can't.
    We as consumers MUST read the fine print in these tests and use the results for COMPARISON PURPOSES.

    I have spoken.[/QUOTE]

    Being a C-MAX owner that is falling short of the mileage claimed and not being happy about it, I assume I am one of the whiners you are referring to. First, I almost never shop at Walmart and even if I did it is 4.5 miles away;) Second, while I agree that the EPA test may be flawed and should be used for comparison purposes only the EPA isn't selling these cars, Ford is. Ford is the one marketing the heck out of these cars as 47 city and highway when for most people that doesn't appear to be the case. Ford is the one that always talks about how these cars get much better mileage than the Prius V when in fact it appears the V gets better mileage. I blame Ford for that.

    Back to the tests, at least with these cars you can't even use the EPA numbers for comparison purposes. If I did, while I might not get get 47 mpg on the C-MAX, I should get better mileage than my 42 mpg combined HCH-II. I don't. It should do nearly 20% better than the Camry Hybrid. It doesn't appear to. I like your idea of a steady state CC mileage being listed but I would list more speeds. Maybe they could also take the existing tests but make them go at higher speeds and for longer distances. How about a 100 mile 65 mph test? That should take most of the gaming, sorry I mean optimizing for the test out of it.

    And yes, I do also blame myself. I was pretty sure I would fall short based on my test drives and the research I did but I bought it anyway. Sometimes I hate it when I am right. By the way, don't get me wrong. I still like the C-MAX. I just wish the mileage was better, and still say with software changes it can be.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  9. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Its official Paymaster, you are a leadfoot :)

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/12/cmax-20121215.html

    Ford’s math on hybrid fuel economy; standing by the C-MAX EPA ratings, acknowledging large real-world variance

    At Friday’s event unveiling the new Transit commercial vehicle family for North America (earlier post), Ford’s Raj Nair, group vice president global product development, spent some time addressing the issue of the large discrepancy between real-world fuel economy results for the C-MAX hybrid and its EPA fuel economy ratings—47 mpg (5.0 l/100km) city, highway and combined—earlier highlighted in detail by Consumer Reports. (Earlier post.)

    Basically, Ford is standing by the ratings as determined by the current testing protocols, Nair said, but added that “we absolutely agree with EPA that hybrids are far more variable in the test cycle compared to real world driving conditions in conventional vehicles. We are working closely with the agency to determine if any changes are needed for the industry relative to hybrid vehicle testing.”

    One of the issues with the Ford results, Nair suggested, is that the performance of the vehicles as designed lends themselves to more sprited driving. Combining a “lead foot” with environmental factors can lead to the wide swings in fuel economy results, he said.

    There have been some questions raised about fuel economy, so it is important to note that we have designed our hybrids to drive exactly the same as all our other vehicles, with the global Ford DNA. A key part of that DNA is “fun-to-drive”. We could have detuned the vehicles to maximize fuel economy like some of our competitors have done, but it would have been at the expense of a fun driving experience. And this would have meant that you would not be to take advantage of the 54 more horsepower that the C-MAX provides over the Prius.


    Ford next-generation hybrids offer increased performance and extended electric modes up from from 47 to 62 mph. Tremendous advantage in fuel economy, but it also makes them more sensitive to spirited driving as well as to environmental conditions. Quite a few factors can affect hybrid fuel economy, more so than regular gas engines.
    "
     
  10. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Fine, its all my fault. Maybe Raj Nair came stop by and show me how he gets 47 mpg in the C-MAX.
     
  11. Paymaster

    Paymaster Well-Known Member

    Actually in all seriousness making the assumption that detuning the car would give me better mileage at the expense of some fun which makes sense, give me the choice. Give me an econ button that lets me pick which one I want. It could be a soft switch, I don't need a hardware button. I bet it could be done. I bet it won't be though.
     
  12. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    I think you would get better results with Wayne
     
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Paymaster:

    I think you are right about a detune for better FE or a stop assist regimen once its > 75% so we can run on the ICE alone while out on the Interstate as we spoke about this afternoon.

    I have a lot more questions than answers right now but you, Rick and Bob are showing the way right now.

    Wayne
     
  14. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Good one, Herm

    Paymaster , I don't include you with "whiners". A whiner is someone complains about his fuel economy but never tells us that his "normal" driving is 79 mph highway plus a lot of 1.5 mile trips. And remote start and max A/C.
    The fact that you are here at Cleanmpg means you acknowledge the role the DRIVER plays in this game and you are doing your best to maximize your fuel usage. That makes you one of the good guys. And even if the average C-Max doesn't quite hit EPA numbers , you'll do pretty well.
    And Raj Nair drives a Mustang Boss 302. At redline. And most likely doesn't pay for his own fuel.
     
  15. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    Oh yes the whiners, I hear about it all the time as they fill up their 30 gallon tanks in their work vans and trucks.. and then drive like maniacs. Imagine if they had a Boss 602
     
  16. rhwinger

    rhwinger Well-Known Member

    Well, I'd like to talk to some Ford engineers about some adjustments. I'm babying my C Max to the hilt, I see 48-54 mpg indicated 60 mile segments, but come up short on the actual tank fills - like just above 47 mpg. 2200 miles on the engine, tires at max sidewall.

    Now, to be honest, my teenage son and wife occasionally 'help' me when they drive it. My wife returns the vehicle with low 40 mpg segments. For now, if Levi can just stay out of the ditches and not pull out in front of oncoming traffic, I'll be happy. ;-)
     
  17. 50 mpg by 2012

    50 mpg by 2012 Well-Known Member

    I believe all OEMs know when their relative user/Sticker values are misaligned well before they are made known to either the EPA or consumer ... based on mules, prototypes, and pre-production testing.

    So, dissecting the problem, the OEM must decide whether to submit the more aggressive (higher) EPA test results ... or a more conservative (more representative of user experience) value for EPA approval. [Is there a penalty for submitting values BELOW test values? I doubt it.]

    It is a matter of corporate conscience ... in my opinion. The higher test values are good for advertising and getting "attention". But, when the better than average consumer (cleanmpg folks) have difficulty meeting the "published numbers" ... the OEM's credability is diminished.

    Just an opinion about reputation ...

    Then we start hearing words like "gaming".


    Paymaster is right!
    Operator selectable "performance" ... economy, normal, sports. The only way to go!

    Maybe mpg at constant speed, cruise control, 40, 55, & 70 mph should be added to the sticker as suggested by others ... along with instruction to the consumer to use the thing between their ears (the brain) to figure it out for themselves for their application.
     
  18. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    count your blessings :)
     
  19. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Wow.......... what a concept. If only someone would make a hybrid with three modes......
     
  20. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    Sighs........ unfortunately,that's the really tough part.
    Getting the consumer to read instructions.
     

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