C-MAX and Fusion Hybrid starting to get bad press

Discussion in 'Ford' started by Paymaster, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Gord

    Gord Super Moderator Staff Member

    Thanks Wayne. I suppose a simple extrapolation will give me a rough idea up to a point!
     
  2. herm

    herm Well-Known Member

    What does that graph tell us?.. I would think if it was aerodynamics affecting the C-Max the slope would be sharper and the low speed mileage would be closer for all 3 cars.. so perhaps its not the higher drag
     
  3. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    My guess.

    The cmax gains ground from 50 to 65 because of the larger displacement engine, but falls back off above 65 because of more drag.

    / of drag and rolling resistance-- RR is the dominant factor up to about 45 mph (if I remember correctly). After that drag is dominant and, of course, is a much bigger player at higher speeds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  4. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    On a percentage basis, the cmax actually did the best on the "normally driven" city route...52.0 vs the V's 55.8.

    /albeit with a 200' elevation drop..pretty sure the gap would have widened had they been going the other direction
     
  5. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Wayne's data vs fuelly:

    If you average the under performance mpg of the cmax vs V on the steady states and the normal city route, the cmax comes out at 10% under the V.

    Spot on with what what fuelly tells us! (38/42 = .9)
     
  6. RedylC94

    RedylC94 Well-Known Member

    That would very likely be true if the drive systems were identical, but they're not. I think at low steady speeds, the C-Max is burdened by too much engine. In general, a small engine can produce a small amount of power more efficiently than a large one can produce the same small power (although the larger engine will be more efficient at higher power levels). Of course there are many other variables, not least of which are control strategies that are programmed in.
     
  7. Carcus

    Carcus Well-Known Member

    Civic Hf vs Hybrids:

    If you take Wayne's steady states from the 2012 Civic Hf and adjust them up 5% for temperature, you get a mpg vs mph line that runs more or less over the Prius V. Now... assuming you're a suburbia/highway driver (not a heavy city commuter) who utilizes mild hypermiler techniques and the eco button ... seems like you'd be right in the ballpark with (or in the case of the Cmax -- even beating) hybrid fuel economy.

    Given that the 2013 updates for the Civic were fairly substantial .....it would be interesting to see a "mild hypermiler's" compo of the 2013 Civic Hf thrown in with the hybrids. Given the price and no battery liability ... seems like the 2013 Civic Hf might be the "thinking man's choice" for practical fuel economy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  8. 300kmileprius

    300kmileprius Well-Known Member

    Hi all: My latest 2013 fusion hybrid drive was in 27 degree temps. I only achieved 35.6 mpg. This was about a 20 mile round trip mile marker to mile marker on 295 in RI. This time the sales guy agreed there is a problem with the epa ratings. This is just more icing on the cake. Speed was 65 mph.
     
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Carcus:

    You made some really good comparisons above.

    Regarding the Civic HF, it is much smaller than any of the contenders and while an all-highway drive revealed the HF to best all but possibly the Prius liftback at the limits, around town the larger full hybrids would bury it.

    If you were to reach down to the compact sedans for FE, a std. 13 Civic LX, the Mazda3 with SKYATIV or an Elantra GT or sedan (all equipped with a stick) would be good choices. Just not in this comparison.

    Wayne
     
  10. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I'd volunteer to be that "mild hypermiler" to test out that theory for a year or three.
    Or....... wait for the 2014 Civic HF with the 6MT.

    Cuz we all know how much Murricans love their MT's.
     
  11. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Super Moderator

    What I find hilarious is how few people actually know how to drive an MT. Here is one of the funniest stories I read back from 2006.

    "ATLANTA (Reuters) - Two U.S. car thieves failed to make their getaway in a car they had just stolen because they couldn't figure out how to use its manual transmission, a witness said on Wednesday.
    The teenagers armed with a gun approached a man outside a pizza restaurant in Marietta, Georgia, late on Monday. They stole his wallet and the keys to his Honda Accord, got into the car but couldn't make it start because it had stick shift, according to John Williamson, 18, a restaurant employee.

    "The kid was just sitting in the car trying to start it but he had no idea what to do. He looked dumbfounded. The only thing he had going was the radio," said Williamson who witnessed the scene.

    While the thief was trying to start the car, restaurant employees called the police who arrived and caught the teenagers as they tried to escape into nearby woods.

    Unlike many parts of the world, the majority of cars in the United States are automatic and many drivers are unused to driving "stick shift" vehicles, in which a clutch pedal must be depressed to change gear."
     
  12. Gord

    Gord Super Moderator Staff Member

    Funny story TS :)- it wouldn't happen in the UK like you say:
    approximately 84% of private vehicles in the UK have a manual rather than automatic transmission.
     
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    Some ergonomic comparisons…

    Ford C-MAX vs. Toyota Prius v vs. Toyota Prius liftback

    [​IMG]
    Prius liftback front and rear seating positions.

    [​IMG]
    Prius v front and rear seating positions – Notice how similar the Prius liftback and v are in proportions? As it should and
    they feel almost identical. The v’s rear seat was moved forward in its track for maximum rear cargo behind the seats.

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX front and rear seating positions – Notice the more upright seating position form the drivers knee perspective. Also,
    it was 7 degrees when I had this shot taken within a black 2013 C-MAX SE by a salesman at Gurnee Ford a few minutes ago.​

    Wayne
     
  14. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    I found the rear seat of the Prius V to have a problem with the space where your feet go. You can even see it in Wayne's photos. There is a big bump where the rear seat floor rail goes. It really sticks far forward on the floor. I kept tripping over it trying to get my big feet in there. Look at the other pictures and you see there is no such obstacle in the other two cars' back seat foot area. Wayne has his feet slid up under the front seats, but getting in and out of the Prius V rear seat can be hindered by that rail. It is then exaggerated if the rear seat is slid toward the back.
     
  15. thunderstruck

    thunderstruck Super Moderator

    What's really important is which back seat Pups likes the most. Dog has to be comfy on road trips!
     
  16. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi CmaxVsPrius:

    I did not find the forward and aft tracks for the back seat hindered by getting in or out but it does take up some foot room that the C-MAX did not.

    Thunderstruck, she'd be fighting to get up front but I think she would do just fine in either the C-MAX or Prius family back there ;)

    A few of my pet peeves but nobody else would probably ever notice...

    Ford C-MAX vs. Toyota Prius - Control Stalks

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX left and right control stalks on top, Prius liftback left and right control stalks on the bottom.​

    I like nice looking and tactile feeling controls on the stalks. The C-MAXs were ungainly and a little sloppy when using the turn signal function. The rear wiper toggle on the edge of the right stalk caught me twice turning on the rear wipers when I did not intend to. VW does this with their stalks and I do not like them for that same reason.

    The v's stalks are a bit more robust feeling and when you turn them, they feel like a higher quality piece.

    Similarly, I have a complaint about the Prius family mouse fir on egg carton backed headliners. I am exaggerating but they are cheap. The C-MAX arrives with a thin foam backed cloth like textured headliner. Very thin and not very robust but it looks much much much more upscale.

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX headliner material left, Prius v right.​

    The C-MAX's visor is a cheap plastic wrap with little padding and a flip up cover whereas the Prius family's visors are soft, "feel" more upscale and a sliding cover is a touch more luxurious. A minor thing I know. I would still rather see a cloth texture print vs. mouse fir however.

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX sun visor and material left, Prius v right.​

    Side view mirror adjustment control? The C-MAX is a bit larger and more modern R-L toggle within the larger circular gimbal control. Toyota's almost all arrive with what used to be a good but now dated L-R toggle and separate gimbal for side view mirror adjustment. I like the C-MAXs better as it is easier to find while your eyes are on the road.

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX Side view mirror adjustment controls left, Prius v right.​

    Rear view mirror adjustment? I really like the SEL’s auto Day/Night sensor embedded in the mirror glass. I do not like that I can barely get my hand around the mirror to adjust it. It is too close to the headliner. The SE version with the manual Day/Night control was just fine.

    The v was a pkg 3 and had the manual Day/Night toggle. I actually prefer manual toggles on all cars best as there is never a period when headlights from behind shine to brightly into my face.

    Prius family map/interior lighting is easier to turn on and off. The C-MAX's round little dome light controls are to small and dainty to reach up and turn them on and off without looking.

    Anyone interested in the three super hybrids steering wheel material comparison?

    [​IMG]
    C-MAX (SE and SEL) vs. Prius Liftback (pkg. 5) vs. Prius v-3 steering wheel material.​

    The C-MAX (SE and SEL are leather wrapped) with raised inside stitching that was not entirely comfortable on my inside fingers and thumb depending on where I placed my hands. The overall leather texture was a bit rough as well.

    The Prius liftback (pkg. 4 or 5 SoftTex like leather wrap) like the Elantra GT and other more luxurious vehicles leather wrapped wheel is soft and feels really good in your hands. The Prius v-5 arrives with the soft material as well.

    The Prius v (2 or 3) arrives with a rough and generally hard feeling synthetic wheel material. The Prius liftback in pkg. 1 – 3 arrives with the same. This is an area Toyota really needs to work on. If only they all arrived with the higher trim SofTex like leather wrap.

    Wayne
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  17. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    I added the sunvisor and headliner material comparison pics directly above. Will post the steering wheel material pics in a few minutes...

    Wayne
     
  18. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    Another comment about the "bad press" talk concerning the new Fusion and C-max hybrids at Ford... Tweets like these make me shake my head. It's so easy to see that the person talking about the hybrid vehicle just has never actually driven them for any extended period of time like we owners have.

    Ford▪Lincoln Service (@FordService)
    1/25/13, 3:13 PM
    @HSANNCHEZZ The Fusion Hybrid gets 47 mpg & accelerates up to 62 mph on electric power alone! What do u drive? Btw, hope u feel better! ^LS

    We owners, and serious reviewers know that 47 miles per gallon is not what it "gets" in real life. Also, as far as accelerating up to 62 miles an hour on the electric power only, I am sure it would take a very vey long flat level road and way too much time to do it if I even could in any traffic -- which I actually have never been able to do. That is just not the right way to talk about how the car uses it's electric motor. It makes it seem like it's a plug-in vehicle where you can just turn the ICE off and easily use electric power only to get up to that speed.

    Why is Ford perpetuating these statements still today in general media like Twitter?
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  19. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi CmaxVsPrius:

    I think it is because that is what the PR folks are paid to do.

    Think of it another way. Let's say I or somebody else was working for someone and they told us to tell the world how beautiful the blue the sky is. We are going to say it is a deep beautiful blue even though half the time its night and the other half there are clouds.

    PR promotes a product or service first and takes care of the problems a product or service provides after wards. If the boss decides to do that.

    I have seen a distinctive change in Ford PR in the last 3 weeks with no more mentions of the Prius family in their PRs.

    Wayne
     
  20. CmaxVsPrius

    CmaxVsPrius Moderator

    I know, I understand that's what these PR people are supposed to do. But I think when I see those statements, to me it does appear really negative because I know what's really happening. I guess maybe it doesn't look negative to the general public?? They see some reports that say it does get 47 and some that say it doesn't, and they're not looking at that hybrid car seriously anyway.

    But Ford is still playing those commercials that show the C-max and say " it beats the Prius V".

    I almost had to laugh right out loud today. Actually I did. I took my Prius to get the oil changed at the Toyota dealership this morning. While I was standing in the waiting area having a coffee, on the big 50 inch TV there was the Ford commercial with the see C-max on it. And it said "beats the Prius V". I glanced around at the other people, and they weren't even paying attention.
     

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