MPG Increase - Non-Ethanol Gas - What to Expect?

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by Mightymouse13, May 9, 2012.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    It's not if you are using number of E0 and E85 stations as a measurement of popularity. E85 stations need E85 cars to support them. In 2017, there were 64 new car choices that could use E85. This year it is 44. Before Ecoboost, the popular F150 engine was flex fuel, now it's not.
    pure-gas.org relies on users to input the stations, the first listing I clicked for Iowa had a comment saying they didn't have E0. An increase in listed stations can simply be more just being added to the database, not an actual increase in stations offering E0. Then not all the stations are actually stations. Listings include speed shops selling high octane racing fuel by the jug or barrel, that's what the three closest for me are. I spotted airports on the Iowa list, and I'm sure marinas are on others. Those two places likely can't fuel a car.

    But Iowa has 346 sources listed on pure-gas.org, and an ethanol site says there is 288 E85 stations. The most recent number for total number of gas stations in Iowa comes from 2012 at 2398. So someone looking for E0 or E85 will have about a 14% or 12% chance of finding it at a random gas station in Iowa.
     
  2. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Meanwhile, E85 sources, pushed by gov't & "ethanol in gasoline industry" in the U.S. (very few in Canada?) appear to be less than 4000, while grass-roots user-powered E0 sources in the U.S. & Canada are almost 15,000
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    As I pointed out, there are fewer cars on the road that can use E85, than ones that can use E0. There is also the demand for E0 from power tools, ATVs, boats, and planes.
     
  4. litesong

    litesong litesong

    E85 has been pushed by "ethanol in gasoline industry" for decades(?). If E85 was any good, lots more cars would be designed to use it. Despite gov't & "ethanol in gasoline industry" pushing ethanol in gasoline, by far E0 provides the best efficiency in 87 octane gasoline engines, which are the standard engines of america. trollbait agrees with "ethanol in gasoline industry"....... & communist chinese.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    Pointing out that number of E0 stations vs number of E85 stations is a flawed metric for measuring E0 popularity for cars is not a statement for or against ethanol in fuel.

    The lack of E85 stations is big reason for why there aren't more flex fuel cars being made. I wanted to experiment with ethanol blends back when I had the Ranger, but getting E85 here was as much trouble as getting E0. The ethanol lobby did try to get more stations, but with ethanol not being able to be piped through petroleum lines, it simply gets costly to truck it outside the corn belt. If there were more E85 stations, the lobby may not be trying to force E15 on everyone now.

    Another big cause for lack of flexfuel cars is that the E85 loophole in CAFE closed in 2015. It is no longer assumed a flexfuel car would run on E85 half the time. Instead, the EPA looks at how much E85 actually sells, or the manufacturer has to prove how much their customers are using.
     
  6. litesong

    litesong litesong

    Some people may be confused that E85, pushed by gov't & "ethanol in gasoline industry", is beat out by E0, which only the grassroots push. But, I'm not confused, because 87 octane E0 is the fuel designated to run best in 87 octane gasoline engines. E85 is still beat out by E0 by 3.5 to 1..... make that 3.7 to 1. trollbait trolls, but has no bait.
     
  7. litesong

    litesong litesong

    The lack of E85 MPG is "why there aren't more flex fuel cars being made".
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    And others don't understand that reality has more variables.
    In 2013 there were 158 flex fuel cars listed on Fueleconomy.gov.
    In 2014, it was 140.
    2015 was down to 98.
    And 2016 had just 69.

    The decline had nothing to do with customers not buying flex fuel cars. The flex fuel engine was the only option in some, and they could run on E10 and E0 just fine. Car manufacturers stopped making them because the CAFE credits for flex fuel cars changed for MY2016. They would only get the inflated MPG value of using E85(for CAFE only the 15% gasoline is counted) for E85 actually used by their cars, not the assumed 50% use in the past. Without E85 stations to supply the cars, there could be E85 used in those cars.

    2019 is down to 43 flex fuel cars. They are dying out without input from consumers.

    There is 69 cars that can use grid electricity this year.
     
  9. litesong

    litesong litesong

    litesong said:
    The lack of E85 MPG is "why there aren't more flex fuel cars being made".
    ///////
    E85 vehicles are dying because they are without good MPG. Ethanol needs high compression ratio(15:1-higher?) ethanol (INDY) engines to improve MPG.
     
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    You are ignoring the impact CAFE policy can have on car manufacturers' decisions.

    Years ago, selling a flex fuel car gave a large credit to a company's CAFE value. So many cars and trucks had flex fuel options. When the E85 loophole was closed, the car companies stopped developing new flex fuel engines, and newer cars didn't have the option. Those still offered are older models used as base engines in most cases.

    Around the same time, start/stop systems started getting a credit for CAFE, and now many new cars have those systems.

    There are plenty of reasons to not use E85. The car companies didn't care if it was used or not. Making a car flex fuel was cheap compared to the CAFE benefit. If that benefit was still in place, they would still be pumping out FFVs.
     
  11. EdwinTheMagnificent

    EdwinTheMagnificent Legend In His Mind

    I'll take a start/stop system over E85 anyday. And some E0 , please.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait Well-Known Member

    I'd just be happy with the open fuel standard. Let methanol and butanol compete if we are going to add an alcohol to gas.
     
  13. litesong

    litesong litesong

    There are plenty of reasons to not use E10, E20, E50, etc. The oil companies care, if ethanol is not used.
     

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