Lexus CT 200h Performance by the Numbers

Discussion in 'In the News' started by xcel, Sep 14, 2010.

  1. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    [​IMG] And not in terms of just the NEDC this time around either!

    [fimg=right][/fimg]Wayne Gerdes - CleanMPG - Sept. 14, 2010

    The rear of the upcoming 2011 CT 200h – 9.8 seconds to 60 and just 42 mpgUS combined.

    Middling acceleration for a hatch deemed as a sports cart and just OK FE considering the drivetrains Prius lineage.

    The new CT 200h, will it be an unprecedented experience in premium compact driving or a lackadaisical disconnected from the road driving experience?

    With Toyota’s HSD, the Prius motor and what appears to be an HS like attention to the suspension and NVH that we have reported on a number of times already, I would have to say it will do a lot of things well. Spirited driving performance however is going to be best left to the BMW set while the CT 200h will be forced to focus on its green credentials to gain market penetration.

    While the Lexus MUSTs, a development standard setup to provide a unique driving character; elegant styling; Lexus’ outstanding manufacturing quality and attention to detail; and the renowned customer service which lies at the heart of the Lexus ownership experience will be the mainstay, it’s the driving experience from behind the wheel that will make or break its chances in the showroom.

    Most of the MUST’s fluff is to get the customer in the showroom as the sports car crowd already expects every car they drive today to have excellent QC for at least 100K miles. The customer service aspect is only put to good use when something the design team did wrong appears in an in your face, up close and personal SOB when said customer is handing you a $580 check to take care of some minor problem to his or her car at the 49,000 mile mark, just beyond the warranty period.

    Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive and Powertrain in the next Lexus

    The CT 200h’s Hybrid Drive system (Lexus loves to call it the Lexus Hybrid Drive System for some reason?) features a unique energy management system. Through the application of “brand-specific[/b]” engineering solutions and software tuning, Lexus engineers have focused on enhancing both the environmental and driving performance of the full hybrid series/parallel system, as well as keep its NVH levels low.

    With a total system output of 134 HP (that number sounds familiar, doesn’t it?), the CT 200h will accelerate seamlessly from 0-60 mph in 9.8 seconds. A little more weight than the icon and equal to a slightly bit slower depending on where you get your 0 to 60 data from. And the telling details is? The CT 200h will be rated at remarkably high fuel consumption figure compared to the car it is based on, a combined EPA estimated fuel economy rating of 42 mpg. That is where the weight really took a chunk out of the tires by comparison to the Prius unfortunately.

    The Hybrid Drive generates significantly less NOx and zero particulate emissions compared to an equivalent diesel engine vehicle according to Toyota but after a conversation with some of the Argonnel Lab boys a month ago, the new Jetta TDI was emitting essentially 0 NOx and PM emissions as well. In fact, it was doing so well, the National lab had to budget in the most advanced exhaust emissions HW they could find to even measure an output! Lexus, you may have to keep the 0 NOx and 0 PM emissions to yourself as the latest diesel drivetrains out of Europe are offering far better performance with a similar emissions profile…

    Moreover, when operating in a switchable EV mode, it generates zero NOx and particulate emissions, driving for up to one mile at speeds of up to 28 mph. Or is it 41 mph? Or maybe 45 mph? Who cares, you have to make up for that free one mile of AER with the gas engine propelling the car and refilling the pack back to its 53 to 57% normal seeking SoC.

    The CT 200h incorporates numerous additional energy saving and environmentally-conscientious measures including LED lighting, an energy-efficient audio system amplifier and bamboo charcoal speakers, and the use of bio-sourced materials.

    Some of this can be found in something as large and obtrusive as the Ford Super Duty so we’ll have to step it up a bit to experience some real environmental credential improvements.

    The Package

    With a highly-focused driver’s environment,(I love that term, don’t you :D), the new Lexus CT 200h has been developed to combine superior handling and a dynamic driving experience with the ride comfort expected of any Lexus. This I am going to say they will have knocked out of the park. Good road manners will be assure as will compliant ride. Spirited however may be a question mark because that 1.8L must roar to approach anything close to a spirited anything?

    The driver’s cockpit will “feature” a low driver’s seat with enhanced lateral and lumbar support, a sporting, wide grip steering wheel and a driver-focused instrument binnacle housing large, high-visibility, triple dials. It sounds like they took a page out of the Scion tC’s play book?

    The CT 200h benefits from a exclusively developed body, chassis and powertrain control system engineering applications designed to offer customers a choice of two distinct driving moods – Dynamic, or Relaxing - in conjunction with the full hybrid’s EV, ECO, NORMAL and SPORT, ‘on-demand’ drive modes. I love how ECO mode helps keep people from performing the 0 to 60 dance between lights but Sport mode in a 10-second car? That seems like “Pretty Average” mode in most everything else?

    Particular attention has been paid to promoting superior handling stability through the high structural rigidity of the bodyshell, a low center of gravity and the minimizing of the yaw inertia moment through the use of an aluminum hood, tailgate and bumper reinforcements. This is where the Toyota/Lexus guys do get it right. The road feel into the cabin is as isolated as being in an airplane at 35,000 feet during an earthquake. Lexus are impressive at this. The higher speed action of the platform however is still in question. Again, they may have borrowed some of the handling stuff from the new tC which actually handles remarkably well for a sub 20K Toyota. The two were really never spoke of in those terms but maybe things are different nowadays?

    The additional handling prowess comes from where again? Introduced for the first time on a Lexus in this segment, a unique lateral performance damper system has been designed to help absorb and minimize body vibrations, giving a linear steering feel and further enhanced ride comfort.

    The Lexus CT 200h features a bespoke suspension design which combines a proven, MacPherson strut front system with a new, fully-independent double wishbone architecture to the rear, offering superior levels of ride comfort, handling and package efficiency. I smell the HS’ isolation and the tC’s nature put together in the CT. I wonder how close or far off the mark we’ll be?

    Exterior Design

    I will not bore you with the Lexus PR inspired smoothly flowing language including “powerful”, “new evolution”, “unique L finesse”, design philosophy”, “refined elegance”, “sporting dynamism”,” highly distinctive”, “sharp-edged”, “resolute”, “unique aura”, “sweeping lines” and the list goes on and on. Do you think somebody spent way too much time in the Thesaurus last week trying to put this piece together?

    In reality, it looks decent enough for a hot hatch. Kind of like an ultra modern Toyota Matrix in fact. And I like the Matrix.

    The CT 200h’s cabin does include the superior ergonomics of Lexus’ advanced Human/Machine Interface technologies with hand-crafted premium quality materials but as far as spacious cabin is concerned, that description is really pulling the wool over the eyes of the reader as it is barely bigger than a Yaris with a hatch form factor that offers just 14.3 cu. ft. of luggage capacity.

    Safety - An area where Toyota really kicks @$$

    The new CT 200h is equipped with Toyota’s entire array of safety technologies including the basic STAR system. N top of that, the CT 200h can be purchased with the “optional” pre-emptive, Pre-Collision Safety system incorporating Adaptive Cruise Control.

    Eight airbags including driver and front passenger knee airbags and Whiplash Injury Lessening (WIL) front seats are fitted as standard, and an upgraded Electronically Controlled Braking-Regeneration system (ECB-R) incorporates Anti-Lock brakes (ABS), Brake Assist (BA), Traction Control (TRAC) and Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) and a hybrid version of the brake override system and something new that they call Smart Stop Technology? The HSD drivetrain is already pretty smart when it comes to stopping so I have no idea what safety feature this incorporates? An airbag deployment causing the engine to shut down until reset maybe?

    All in, Toyota is really applying a lot of PR effort into the launch of this vehicle and it will be well into next year before we see it in showrooms. Something smells funny about the push and I have to wonder is it just PR or do they have an ill-performing albatross on their hands and they need to gussie it up before the Journalists get a hold of it?

    Or may I am being overly harsh thanks in part to recently riding and writing up the review on the premiere Adventure Touring Bike in the world in the form of the 2010 BMW R 1200 GS that offered up 56 mpg while having a 0 to 60 time just a touch over 3-seconds? Jaded or just harsh reality setting in? You make the call?
  2. wxman

    wxman Well-Known Member


    As an air quality scientist, I am extremely interested in your visit to ANL. Are you at liberty to elaborate on what you discussed there?
  3. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi WXman:

    After receiving the security clearance, I was one on one with one of the principals for about 30-minutes. It however was not nearly enough time to go into the details. I can tell you that he is running a straight up small European GM diesel engine on gasoline but I am not sure how he is doing it or the cycle profile being run to make that happen? Regarding the TDI emissions discussion, it was an 09 Jetta TDI they were measuring and they had a heck of a time recording anything! Even when they received the new gear, they had to be very careful with temp and humidity as they would affect the readings with or without the TDI’s emissions being measured!

    I wish I could have provided more but the wife lost her mind in front of a lot of people and blew the entire weekend. Some of the scientists were supposed to head up to Elkhart Lake with us and the brand new TDI Cup replica I was to drive had to be left at ANL to be picked up by STI two days later. The weekend was to consist of deep TDI discussions, ANL discussions and TDI Cup racing.

  4. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    Wow, 42mpg combined. Still at least in Insight-II and HCH territory, but still disappointing for the same drivetrain as the Prius. Just how much more does the Lexus weigh? What kind of tires does the Lexus have?

    And do we have a city vs highway breakdown yet, or are they nearly the same?
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan:

    None of that is available yet. I assume it will have 18's but let me look around a bit as I have some really hi rez stuff that I can hopefully see the tire sizes on... Be back in a few.

  6. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan:

    They are xxx/45 R17's of some sort. That is the best I can tell from the best Hi Rez pic I could find. Those specs may have been posted in one of my earlier articles on the CT 200h. God knows I have been posting a bunch of them lately???

    Good Luck

  7. msirach

    msirach Well-Known Member

    Interesting info for sure! Running diesel on gas? That is really a story in itself.
  8. binderme

    binderme Member

    Sorry but the above is nothing more than made up crap , misinformation and a complete lie .

    The juice in those batteries wasn't produced by farries , it took the burning of gasoline to produce the charge . And if a plug in EV is what is being talked about the reality of it is today ~95-99 % of the electricity on our grid depending on time of day & time of year is produced with coal , natural gas with maybe 3 % produced from other means some of the time , hydro . Alternatives like solar & wind make up less 0.1 % of the US grid today . And that type of power also has a oil produced from footprint .

    So what that means is all EV's only tail pipe shifting so they all still produces a bleep of a lot of HG , SO2 , NOX , CO & CO2 . Then when in engine run mode it produces ultra fine pms that can kill you just like every other gasoline powered car on the road along with all the listed pollutants . And the above doesn't even consider all the pollution from making the batteries making all the electric components , disposal of those toxic batteries at the end of their life and all energy consumed , diesel fuel to ship all those parts to an assembly point .

    So that mile isn't free nor is it traveled without producing pollution and I'm sick those that live in fantasy land believing such garbage & lies . How about interjecting a little reality into your article .........Like the real fact that NO SUV or PICKUP is green irregardless of what drive train you shoe-horn into it !!!

    And if all you hybrid people don't know gasoline is far dirtier than diesel with as much as 8 times as much sulfur . And gasoline engines put out tons of ultra fine PMs that aren't measured or regulated today . And all the diesels sold today in the US are far cleaner today than any gasser today , hybrids included . Gasser put out far more CO CO2 SO2 along with those tons of ultra fine PMs than any of the clean diesels today . In fact the current diesels have exhausts that can have cleaner air coming out the tail pipe than is going in . You can't say that about a single gasoline car , hybrid or otherwise today .......

    You don't believe that take your finger and wipe inside of any gasser , hybrid included and you will get a black soot coated finger . Try that on a current diesel , 08 or later and you will not .
  9. msirach

    msirach Well-Known Member

    You need to look at the tail pipe of a hybrid. YOU are misinformed.
  10. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Binderme:

    Welcome to CleanMPG.

    Now the tough part… Not only are you spreading misinformation, you have really stepped into it. I used to work a nuke and you missed that one completely for some reason? You also may want to do some work over at the EIA to find out what a coal plant emits to produce a kWh of power minus a max of 7% line losses to your outlet. Drive for 4 to 5-miles that a kWh will allow for the standard driver and do the math.

    Here is a start: 1 kWh of production emits no more than 1.3 pounds of CO2 when converted from coal.

    If you have any more questions, feel free to join in but please post from a position of knowledge vs. total BS. We have been around the block a few thousand times ourselves.

  11. binderme

    binderme Member

    Nuke isn't exactly clean , I grew up next to and did work at one . We have 60 years of radioactive waste that will be deadly for thousands of years . How clean is that .........

    And coal produces deadly waste filled with minerals that contaminate the air & water . Anyone else remember the coal fly-ash/slag pond that failed in Tenn a few years back . There are two huge holding ponds similar a few miles from my home that could do similar . And to respond to post on coal emissions there is HG in large amounts added to the air and water when coal is burned , just one of the contaminants you get when you burn coal .

    Don't get me wrong I support the use of both but am tired of all the lies being told of how "clean" hybrids are . They really aren't any better than other forms of transport and dirtier than some . By the way I own a PZEV Honda and that tail pipe has a good coating of soot .

    And on driving and being around Hybrids I've unfortunately clocked 15k + miles in a Prius & Highlander hybrid . Both tail pipes were coated in ultra fine PMs ( soot for those that don't know ) .

    And what I stated is a fact , ultra fine PMs aren't measured or regulated on gasoline cars in the US today . If don't believe this look into the fact that CARB is considering requiring PM traps on gasoline vehicles to deal with the issue . And the larger the displacement the engine the more ultra fine PMs are spewed when it comes to gasoline powered vehicles .

    Also a few years back the EPA did a study of the brown cloud that hangs over Denver in winter months . What they found was the diesels that had been blamed for years weren't a contributing factor . But the main causes were the ultra fine PMs coming out of gasoline powered vehicles and sand in the environment . Also they found that the larger PMs that older diesel expelled fell harmlessly to the ground most times within 24 hours . While gasoline engine produced ultra fine PMs stay aerosolized for as long as 3 months .

    And the current emissions tests on gasoline powered vehicles don't measure the ultra fine PMs , so the rating that says their emissions produce "0" PMs is false .
  12. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    Binderme, you've just stepped into a room full of lots of experts on both hybrids and diesels. The fact that you call everyone here "you hybrid people" shows you have no idea where you are. You probably found the CT200h article on Google and came blasting in here. Stick around, do a little reading and learning, and you'll realize that there's more diversity of opinion here than you might realize at this point.

    I agree with you that NO vehicle is "green". Cars are inherently dirty, dangerous and polluting and always will be. But it would be foolish binary thinking to dismiss the relative differences, when a Prius or clean TDI is orders of magnitude cleaner than the cars of just a few years ago, many of which are sill on the road, not to mention cleaner than 98% of the NEW cars being sold today. IIRC your statement about tailpipe emissions being cleaner than the air going in also holds true of some hybrids.

    If you want to start a hybrid vs diesel war, this is NOT the place for it. Go to the tdiclub or priuschat echo chambers. Cleanmpg is a refuge from that ridiculous homer debate. Here we recognize that higher-mpg hybrids and clean diesels are BOTH superior to the average car, and we recognize the pros and cons of both.

    You do have a good point about ultra fine PM, and that has been addressed here. I agree that it's a serious concern; the health effects aren't well enough known, but it is possible that the fine soot in a gas car's exhaust may be more dangerous than the more visible exhaust of a diesel. But that's no reason to come in here bashing on hybrids as the embodiment of all evil.

    There is an environmental impact to manufacturing batteries but you have blown it way out of proportion. It's significant, but not huge, and is made up within the first few thousand miles of operation. Next will you bash on hybrids for all the pollution in Sudbury, ON (most of which is now cleaned up), even though there's more nickel in the stainless steel of an average kitchen than in the average hybrid's NiMH batteries? Also these batteries are not toxic as you proclaim.

    Lithium batteries, which don't exist in production hybrids yet but will soon, ARE highly toxic. But so is lead, and the lead acid batteries in ALL our cars are the most recycled product on earth. Given the high price and scarcity of Lithium, you can bet your ass the same will be true of automotive Lithium batteries so your concerns about disposal are unfounded.

    Not sure why you bring up coal in this thread, because as you recognized the CT200h is not a PHEV and does not use a single Wh of grid electricity. If the battery charge propelling the vehicle in EV mode was genuinely captured during regen and would otherwise have been lost, then it's a plus. That's kind of the point of hybrids. If you do want to talk about the use of grid electricity in BEVs, remember that it's not a zero-sum game: BEVs are so much more efficient than reciprocating engines that they're cleaner even if powered by pure coal; and pretty much zero-GHG if you power them by the 100% renewable electricity available from my utility.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  13. binderme

    binderme Member

    I quoted the part of article that I thought wasn't reality . The energy that is stored in the battery is first produced by the burring of gasoline . Storing that energy in batteries that are toxic to make and dispose of at the end of their life . Hybrid components that cost two to three times as much as gasoline or diesel ones . So that little battery powered ride isn't free ..................

    I support all efforts to make transport more efficient here , hybrids included if they make econnomic sense . I've driven the most efficient cars available since the 70s . Most of what I've owned over the last ~35 years have been diesels but I have looked into and drove hybrids but not impressed to date . But the part of this in the US I don't support is over stringent emissions requirements on light diesel exhaust here .

    Cars that for the most part haven't been sold here since 1986 after the end of real CAFE . If you don't know all auto diesels , diesel powered cars were withdrawn from the US market in 1987 at the end of yearly required increases . So from that point until now all but VW withdrew their diesels from the US market , VW withdrew diesels from the US 87-early 89 & 93 to mid 96 . The most stringent light duty emissions rules were passed when not one auto maker sold any auto diesels here , how much sense does that make ????????? Not a lot of clean air to be gotten from over stringent emissions rules on cars no sold here .........

    The shortcited focusing just on NOX here in the US to the point it cuts out the most fuel efficient models ever made from the US market . All while touting hybrids as being ultra green when they really aren't any greener than other options .

    What I would like to see is a more balanced way to go about this . A way to do this is to talk about the positives that could be gained if say we went to say Euro5 emissions for long enough to allow a big jump in real CAFE here . This would allow overnight fleets of 60-80 mpgUS cars to be sold here . No one can tell me that allowing this for say 5 years to allow Euro6 to take Effect would be any worse that what we have had over the last 2 decades of the abuse of the truck loophole here . Another option could be a small displacement gas engine & man trans equipped car . Having spent time in NZ & Australia I can say first hand that these cars are far cheaper than any hybrid and can produce similar consumption numbers .

    In the end I'm not against hybrid tech in general but quite a bit aggravated of some believing it's the second coming in it's current form . It's no greener than any of the current super efficient diesel offerings around the world but not sold here because of having NOX rules which are almost impossible to achieve . How about a more balanced look at this without the not so reality based statements about miles being covered under electric power being free ............
  14. seftonm

    seftonm Veteran Staff Member

    I like diesels as much as almost anybody and agree with you in kind of wishing that NOx regulations for diesels could be relaxed a little to let manufacturers sell more here. But for your claim that hybrids are no greener than super efficient diesels... The Prius is rated at 89g/km of CO2 in Europe. Name me one other car that has as much interior space and similar 0-60 times with lower CO2 emissions.
  15. binderme

    binderme Member

    I think you missed my point about the big picture , To get a real idea of the greeness of a car you must concider the total cost of producing a product and what it costs to purchase must be figured in to get an entire picture of a cars greenness or not . And every hybrid on the road today cost many times that to produce dollar wise compared to any other similar car on the road today , has a much larger impact on the planet from what it is built from and will cost many times to dispose of . It's not just about tailpipe emissions and just looking at that gives a pretty myopic picture .

    And when all of the above is looked at they are no greener than the average gasoline car from a miscellaneous auto maker . And I might add the last small Toyota I had down under was a gasoline 1.3 L 5 spd man car that had no trouble achieving mid 40s mpgUS running 110 - 140 kmph . The sticker new for the car was less than $13k Australian$ , compared to the $43+k AU$ Prius that does about the same . Which would say is greener ???????????

    And before someone claims the Prius achieves a lot higher mpgs , I have over 100k worth of data that says otherwise in real world S Cal driving .
  16. WriConsult

    WriConsult Super Moderator

    You're blowing things out of proportion again. Hybrids don't cost many times more to produce than conventional cars. If that were true Toyota would still be losing money on them -- an unlikely scenario since they've sold over a million of them and keep churning them out. Most estimates are that a hybrid only costs $2-3k more to build than a comparable conventional car. And that $2-3k figure is about the same premium as is required to build a clean diesel meeting today's emissions standards (which, I agree, set too high a bar on NOx while heavy trucks are still allowed to SPEW).

    Hybrids don't have enormously more environmental impact in their manufacturing than other cars (did you read my last post), nor is battery disposal a big issue (again, did you read it?).

    You have GOT to be kidding. I can only assume you really did just wander in here with no idea what this site is about. Cleanmpg is dedicated to learning to drive more efficiently and beat our cars' EPA ratings. Not by modding them, but by adjusting the nut between the front seat and the steering wheel. If you can't match the EPA ratings after 100k of real world SoCal driving, then you need some adjustment yourself. That's not meant as a put-down, it's just a fact.

    Go to the home page and read some of the articles on fuel efficient driving. Learn not only to not be a leadfoot, but to take advantage of anticipatory driving, DWL, and a whole bunch of other stuff including techniques specific to hybrids if you have one. Doesn't mean being a slug and getting in everyone's way, but it does mean understanding what things your car is efficient at, where it wastes energy, and maximizing the former while minimizing the latter.

    Almost all the Prius drivers on this site beat their cars' EPA ratings handily. I've only Priuses a few times, but even with just a little practice I am able to get 70-75mpg in urban/suburban driving typical of my daily routine (where I get 30-32mpg in a conventional vehicle EPA-rated at 22/29). For the record, I don't own a hybrid, and my next car won't be one either (though it's likely my next next car will be one). I do own a diesel.

    If anything, I've found diesels to be much less sensitive to driving style than conventional cars (while hybrids are MORE sensitive, which is why most uneducated Americans can't meet their hybrids' EPA ratings). I have a MUCH harder time beating the EPA in my diesel Golf than with anything else I've driven.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  17. binderme

    binderme Member

    a couple of things ,

    Toyota doesn't make any profit per unit of the hybrid Prius which is why they keep the production levels around the world so low . I was told recently , last fall by someone I know at Toyota Corp they still loose at least a few $K per unit . I also was told by this person years ago that in the early years the loss was in excess of $10k+ per unit . And on the units that are getting the newer batteries the loss per unit is higher than it was on the previous generation . In order to make any money they would have to charge at least 1/3rd more per unit which the market would never bear .

    I also was told and have read that all these losses are figured into the bottom line as advertising and good P R costs . I've also been quoted on more than few times from people at all levels of Toyota that the purpose of this car isn't to make money but to get green company P R and to increase company CAFE in the US . Another fact , the Prius makes up less than 3 % of their world wide production last figures I saw a few years ago . If they were the money makers you claim they would build a few more ............They may sell a few of them here but in the rest of the world where they have small displacement gassers and diesels as an option they can't give them away ..........All of this was told to me by someone that actually knows what they are talking about .

    A quote I've received from sales & higher ups at Toyota over the years , I also saw that someone else recently wrote something similar to this on another blog " They use their hybrids to get buyers in the showroom then they sell them a model they have in stock " .
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  18. binderme

    binderme Member

    First the 100k was clocked by an average driver in S Cal using a Prius as a company car . She has the records not me but every gal of gas ever put in the thing was accounted for . It returned the range of 36-39 mpgs over that 100k .

    Now most of her miles are not usually the best for mpgs but they shouldn't have had the toll on my consumption they did . In my experience if you vary even a little outside of optimum conditions hybrids suffer greatly in the mpgs they return . And I'm not the only one saying this . But if you drive a diesel as you say you know that many of the conditions that kill a hybrid's consumption numbers help a diesel's . Something else I've read and experienced first hand is many of the things to do that improve mpgs that work well to improve mpgs in a gas or diesel can make the consumption increase in a hybrid .

    I've clocked quite a few miles in a Prius and have seen as high as 61 on the computer . But for most tanks the best I did it was 40 or under for the tank . My 83 Quantum TD got better than that , 48-51 most tanks so I do know how to drive efficiently . It was larger and better to drive or ride in than the Prius . I have owned several TDIs also which were easier to get high mpgs than any hybrid I've driven .

    If I had to go gasser I would prefer one like the one I drove around southern Australia which cost 2 1/2 times less than a Prius . Which by the way isn't an option here in the US which I'm sure helps Toyota sell that thing . And I really could care less about 0-60 , now 0 -800 to 1000 miles on a tank now that will get me in the showroom .......
  19. msirach

    msirach Well-Known Member

    I have logged many miles in a Prius. We have had a total of 4 Prii and they easily get over 60 mpg at highway speed. Your profit/loss statement is in error as well.
  20. binderme

    binderme Member

    different than any other chearleading hybrid site , I don't think so ...............

    how's the weather is those wonderful clouds that some seem to in , LOL

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