My Take on CRZ

Discussion in 'Honda Hybrids' started by psyshack, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    Jeff,

    I share the disappointment that the CR-Z is not the 80's CRX, even considering the upgraded safety and emissions standards.

    One button does not truly toggle the CR-Z from CRX HF, to CRX DX, to CRX Si.
     
  2. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    Chuck

    And it's almost politically correct. :eyebrow:
     
  3. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    Would you like it better if I just said it sucks? :D
     
  4. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    I somehow just noticed that the electric motor is just 13 hp?
    13 hp???WTF is the point in 13 hp?? Where did they parts bin it-from the original Insight?
    It is an absolute miracle that a 122 hp car can do a 8.3 0-60.
    And it doesn't get great MPG.
    Slow, a bit pricey, so so FE, 2 seats- sign me up!

    Those 2.4 Corollas will bury this car.A Honda "sports car" smashed by a Corolla! Will it reliably beat a 4 cyl Camry?


    Psyshack if I was a Honda partisan -I am a little bit of a Honda fan, but not a Honda nut- I would absolutely cry over this car.
    Well, maybe it will sell ok.I feel for Honda.They are getting a bit like Dodge-nothing anyone really wants to buy(other than the Cummins Ram because it is so much cheaper than the other diesel 3/4 and 1 tons-good motor,too thirsty but good) .
    Charlie
     
  5. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    With electric motors it's not the HP that counts, it's the torque. That torque also maxes out at a much lower RPM than a gas engine. That little motor is a bit more effective than you think. :)
     
  6. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    Sean the problem is,,, the limited amount of shear TQ is exhausted in mear milli seconds and there is not enough HP in the EM to make a smooth transition concerning the ICE TQ and HP curves. Throw in a Honda CVT to date and you have rpm and disgusting forward movement. And the whole time you have a wonderful Honda ICE going to waste, not to mention and now all most after thought IMA system all but getting in the way. <<<<<< that does suck!!!! Hondas FE and attention to mother nature and fun factor has always been ICE based.

    I would rather have the option to buy a Honda 3 door hatch with a 6MT or a double clutch floppy paddle tranny in a updated turbo diesel. With the ICE shockingly reminding me. <<<<<< Hey I bet you didn't know I could do this. Or hey do this and I will give you 80 mpg @ 70 mph with a simple pulse and bleed drive down I-40. Of which I have never done. But beleive is possible. And full lean burn throttle control. And then throw in hybrid on the high end as diesel TQ fades. Well it does not fade. It just flat out stops. LMAO Save the copper and make the IMA system higher rpm responsive as dictated by how deep your foot is buried in the throttle. And give it the ability to completely decouple from the drive line when the packs full and your in low load high mpg,, be it slow or at speed for gods sake!!!!!

    Or could it be Honda has shot there wad on the Robot? Honda-Jet seems to be dead at this time. There lawn mowers and generators are now clearly over priced for what you get and they are China-Marketing there simple utility ice's out to Wal-Mart fodder and others. The motorcycle division is a world wide market main stay. But at the enthusiast level in most displacements and markets they are cellar dwellers.

    If Yamaha ever decides to build cars. Honda and Yota will be in big trouble. And Mazda will be the only ones to bring a challenge if they pull there head out.
     
  7. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Rightlane
    It is always the HP that matters- if the gearing is right. Torque doesn't make you accelerate fast-HP and gearing do.
    13 hp and 50 lb ft(or whatever it is) might be ok from 0-15 mph but at any other speeds 13 hp is just not enough to accelerate a 2700 lb vehicle very much.

    This is a slow car-and the electrics just kinda get in the way.
    Like Jeff said/implied- just put more Honda 4 stroke in there with some lean burn trickery and lots of gearing-forget about the hybrid. The old Insight didn't get great hy mpg because of the electrical trickery- it was all Honda ICE at hy speeds.
    The Prius doesn't get great hy mpg because of the electrical trickery(though I suspect that the electrical trickery allows the low hy rpms-it kicks in to prevent lugging at 1400 rpms)

    Yeah, Honda has lost the hybrid battle to Toyota, but so has everyone else. GM's hybrid might be slightly better hy and towing, but it is sooo expensive no one will buy it for FE.

    Honda should look for a better way-maybe flywheel hybrid power-like F1. Honda can't beat the Prius family for city FE in a car sized vehicle. The TDs can't either.

    My usual refrain is coming-the Prius is just too good-forget about matching it for city FE.
    It has put paid to the original Insight, the HCH2, the newest Insight, and it will sink the little TDs if they try to compete in the $23000 range.

    If Toyota thought there was $$ to be made in this segment-sporty Hybrids-they would stuff a Camry or Highlander drivetrain in a reworked Prius , fat tires, stiff suspension and that would be it(they have already done this-but it is a running concept car not slated for production)
    Honda needs to be Honda-sweet ICE with lean burn and lots of gearing don't imitate Toyota.
    It always comes down to The Prius(Toyota) is too good to beat-city-using electric motors.Toyota is too good, too well funded and too far ahead to be beaten by its own concept.
     
  8. msantos

    msantos Eco Accelerometrist

    Hi Charlie;

    Not always and certainly not in this case. Sean is correct.

    The whole principle behind IMA is that the torque contribution of the electric motor is the single most important design attribute of the chosen hybridization path.
    Boosting of the Horse Power never was the end result of this design especially when Honda opted for a compact high density synchronous DC motor (still one of the highest density in the world)

    I will make Honda's case with the following image:

    [​IMG]

    The whole point behind this design is that it allows for this specific motor design to produce and deliver almost all the torque the ICE produces at its most effective RPM range (typically very high) but with just 15-20 KWh rating... and it does so at just 1000-1500 RPM which is where the tiny 1.3L ICE is at its weakest.

    By the way, this is also a training point typically delivered to Honda technicians.

    Is a high FE IMA equipped Honda a race car? Definitely not, but ask any average HCH-II owner how their car performs without any electric assist and you will get the true revelation. With electric assist this car will only manage a 12.2 sec from 0-60 but without any assist you'll be lucky to get a 16-17 sec rating.


    Cheers;

    MSantos
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 2010 Prius (CAN Touring) Staff Member

    Maybe somewhat analogous to use of a powered sub-woofer in a home theater system:

    The SW handles the extreme low end, doing two things: handling that range, and allowing the other speakers to be tuned more efficiently, with higher cut-offs.
     
  10. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    Charlie

    TQ gets you moving, HP keeps you moving.
     
  11. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    msantos

    I get your point -thanks for the chart-but I have a slightly different take on it.
    I look at all that torque-almost doubling it-from about 95 to about 170 at 1000 RPMs!!

    BUT THE CR-Z IS STILL AN ABSOLUTE DOG-8.3- 0-60 despite all that torque because adding 13 hp is still just 13 hp, and energy added per unit of time is what makes something accelerate harder.

    A Honda 2 liter ICE could add maybe 100 hp at 6500 rpms and maybe 50 hp at 3500 RPMs- vs the 13 hp the electric motor adds.

    I'm not arguing against electrical assist; I'm arguing against TOO LITTLE ELECTRICAL ASSIST!! Heck,I own a Prius-that little sucker really kinda jumps from 15 mph to 45 mph for such a low hp vehicle.

    The naysayers on the CR-Z are saying that Honda tried to hit too many targets-performance(acceleration, handling), good mpg-so they ended up with too much of a compromise vehicle.
    It isn't fast, and it doesn't get great mpg!
    It is a slowish sporty car with poorish mpg for a Hybrid.

    If Honda had just gone all in with a 220 hp 2 liter ICE-plenty of gears and lean burn so it could get great hy mpg(maybe turn 1600 RPMS at 60 mph) it would be
    1)Kinda fast-maybe close to 6.0 0-60 if it weighed just 2600 lbs.
    2)Good hy FE- maybe 40+ mpg- hy mpg at 60 mph

    Granted it wouldn't get 35 mpg city- it would get roughly what a 2.4 liter Corolla gets-not sure what that is.

    On the other hand they could go with bigger output electric motor-like Toyota. But the Prius family is already there-Honda can't win that fight.

    We agree that electric motors are great car motors(assisting or standing alone)- but we disagree on how "good" this particular car is.
    Seems like Honda didn't play to their strength here.The CR-Z needs more power-a lot more power-sweet Honda revving 4 stroke power.
    Charlie

    PS We are all showing our hot rodder roots. Torque vs HP-
     
  12. msantos

    msantos Eco Accelerometrist

    Hi Charlie;

    I certainly agree on most points, that is for sure.

    However, I would not write-off the CR-Z concept completely yet. And since this is CleanMPG and we still care more about MPG than fast acceleration times, we may have a bit more to say on the capabilities of these cars when driven for FE.

    Wayne already showed what is possible when you put a true FE expert behind the wheel and very soon we'll be able to demonstrate what anyone can achieve with the MT6 and CVT models when these are driven defensibly and with the basic CMPG hypermiling toolkit under the belt. :D :D

    Stay tuned for our week-long Head to Head review of two CR-Z's: One with a 6MT and the other with a CVT. A few surprises are likely in store. :D

    Look I am a Prius (2G and 3G) owner too and the CR-Z is no Prius when it comes to MPG, no matter how you slice it. Heck, it gets buried but all other Honda hybrids too (except the accord hybrid).
    But... while we can smile in a Prius while commuting to work in pure FE bliss, the same cannot be said about its driving dynamics. Even though I do not enjoy the analogy, the 2G Prius is understandably called an appliance by some and the 3G is better but still did not do much to improve this legacy and the purists mock it for that.

    The CR-Z in the other hand almost begs to be tossed into turns and while not as good a car for commuting FE it is fun to drive on the weekends at the track. It looks fast too and not many of these so-called "purists" disagree.

    Besides, keep an eye on the tuner market too. While it has more than enough power for me, power boosting kits already exist to make up for the claims of "lesser" acceleration. :D

    Maybe Honda is on to something after all.


    Cheers;

    MSantos
     
  13. JusBringIt

    JusBringIt Be Inspired

    And this is what Honda was hoping. Civics are not fast from production, but with the aftermarket support, they have been made into an icon.
     
  14. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Then the Honda Hybrids tunable? You can hotrod the ICE easily enough?

    I've never heard of anyone hotrodding a Prius.Not sure it is possible since the ICE and electric motor are so tightly integrated.

    Just wish Honda had given it more ICE to begin with-lot more ICE.Toyota has managed to improve the Prius's mpg with a bigger ICE.

    I read somewhere that Honda is considering a Hotrod version of the CR-Z?

    We'll see.
    Charlie

    PS- JustBringIt- most Civics are still "not fast" after getting the usual RICER treatment (oversized horrible sounding exhaust, cheesy graphics, various ground effects crap with a worthless spoiler on the rear, worthless CAI, neon tube looking LEDs, way too big wheels).
     
  15. msantos

    msantos Eco Accelerometrist

    Hi Charlie;

    As a hybrid, the CR-Z is the least hybrid of all Hybrids Honda produced to date - bar none. Let put it into a meaningful perspective here:

    You know how many folks call the typical Honda hybrid a "Mild Hybrid" ? Technically, this is blatantly incorrect (blame Ford's marketing arm for popularizing the mistake) but the CR-Z is so much less hybrid than for instance, the 2nd Gen Insight that some may swear that it easily crossed from the usual "power assist hybridization" into the "Start-Stop, mild-hybrid zone".

    So, is this car tunable? You bet, and if I am correct the kits are already out there to prove it.

    Cheers;


    MSantos
     
  16. JusBringIt

    JusBringIt Be Inspired

    Sorry Charlie, but this is 180 deg. from what I'm talking about. What you are talking is not performance enhancement. That is your typical ricer setup.

    I'm leaning more towards the strength of the internals and transmission to withstand boost pressures and roominess inside the engine bay for turbocharging or supercharging. Hondas and Toyotas are known to be able to withstand actual hp modifications without having to worry about building up every other part of the car to compensate.

    Now that there is an electric motor worth 13hp. Who's to say someone wont be able to juice that up to say 20hp with a different motor? You can almost pick and choose any hp/TQ combination when it comes to these electric motors limited by size of course. But if there is room in the engine bay, all you need is the right coupler.

    I've personally not seen the engine bay of the CR-Z, but the "sky's the limit" mentality that comes with hondas are one of the reasons people aspire to build these things. My car for instance would need to have a rebuilt transmission in order to have any additional power. Internals would have to be forged to have anything over 7psi and the engine bay has ZERO spare room.
     
  17. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    So a typical Honda crank can take 15 psi of boost or a 100 HP shot of Nitrous with no problem?

    I kinda wondered about that.

    No,I don't consider the Ricer stuff to be performance improvements, but I see 50 of them for every Civic with Nitrous(much more common than turbocharging or any other supercharger)
    Charlie
     
  18. warthog1984

    warthog1984 Well-Known Member

    Charlie-

    Turbo'd civic are actually fairly popular- I looked into doing it for the EX. A stock Honda B16/D17 can safely get up to ~200hp with bolt-ons + blower, beyond that the connecting bolts are the limiting factor.
     
  19. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    warthog-

    So it is actually the connecting rod bolts that are the weak links-they stretch and then break?

    200 HP would be maybe 10-12 psi boost depending on whether there is an effective intercooler.

    In NOLA the tuner movement isn't really big.They mainly just do the RICE treatment-worthless CAI worthless noisy exhaust, lots of add on plastic junk).I'm not a CAI and header fan-the OEM stuff is just so good, and Honda is pretty clever with intake and exhaust tuning. Aftermarket engineers aren't going to beat Honda in part throttle 4 stroke tuning with drive by wire throttles.

    I hope Honda makes it.I seem to remember the CEO of Honda- several years ago-was very concerned about Honda being able to compete with Toyota for this very reason.Honda didn't have the $$ to R&D against Toyota.They were going to lose the long term battle against Toyota because of R&D funding.

    I'm a Honda fan-and a Toyota "disliker" so I hope Honda makes it.Honda always built the efficient ,safe cars we needed(ignored what we thought we wanted-V-8s etc)
    Charlie
     
  20. JusBringIt

    JusBringIt Be Inspired

    The 2JZ motor from Toyota can withstand massive amounts of power. Aftermarket usually follows after a brand also. Case in point:

    A 2001 chrysler sebring coupe is a 2001 dodge stratus coupe is a mitsubishi eclipse. You'll never find aftermarket parts for the first two, however they are plentiful for the eclipse.
     

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