My Take on CRZ

Discussion in 'Honda Hybrids' started by psyshack, Sep 11, 2010.

  1. tedjohnson

    tedjohnson Well-Known Member

    Thanks msantos, I was all set to get the CRZ until I saw the MPG rating and having previously ascertained that the Insight 2 would give me 12 mpg less than the Prius 3 over my 30 miles test run, I went with the Prius. Coming from an Insight 1 with a lifetime mpg of 62 and summer mileage of 70, both were a come down, but with the Prius I am getting over 60 mpg summer, so I guess my lifetime mpg will be 56 maybe. Not too bad for a 3100 # car compared to the Insight1 1800#. But the Prius handling feels more like a tank compared to the Insight1 & 2. ( love those twisty mountain roads reminds me of those motor cycling days). So all in all, I like the Prius but always eye the CRZ when I see one and think - if they had only given it the mpg of the Insight 1, I would have bought it.
     
  2. CR-Zmarty

    CR-Zmarty Member

    I was driving my CR-Z to the gym this morning and tried maintaining speed myself instead of using the CC. I noticed the instant FE was at about 25-35 with my right foot doing the work at 55 MPH. I then hit the CC button and the instant FE immediately surged to 50+ (this while in ECON mode). I just get better mileage that way. Always have. I like driving at a constant speed and don't like being near those that don't.
    I've also noticed with Hondas I drive (we also have a 2005 Acura RL) that the throttles are very "heavy", for search of a better term. More resistant, maybe. My Mini was MUCH easier to hold a speed with than the RL or the CR-Z. I occasionaly drive the RL to work, thinking I'm doing 55-60. I'd look at the speedo and I'd be doing 40 (oddly, the RL feels like it's going faster than it actually is, considering how "insulated" it is from the driving experience). My CR-Z's throttle is the same, which I guess is a good thing. I actually developed a shin splint in my right leg from having to push so much more. Tha pain has finally subsided.
    I guess the hybrid thing is rubbing off, My partner just got the best mileage in the 5 years he's owned the RL: 21 MPG in the city. We did acheive 27 highway MPG on a trip to Arkansas last year.
    He's getting the New Car Bug, but he has only 1 payment left and new tires. He's going to look at the Sonata Hybrid when it comes out.
     
  3. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    I'm glad CRZ owners are enjoying there cars!

    I wanted so much to want this car it wasn't funny. All be it I learned my lesson buying first year new gen cars when I purchased my 06 Civic EX. So It would have been atleast two years before I would have purchased one unless my dealer called with a $6k price off MSRP and threw in a top of the line extended warranty for free. Then I might have bitten. :)
     
  4. CR-Zmarty

    CR-Zmarty Member

    I'm usually leary of first-year cars, also. But being that it is a Honda and it is based on the Insight, I was pretty confident. I had one of the first Minis in 2002. It was the best of the 3 I had. Only problem I had was a bad alternator. My 2007 S was the first year for the second gen and it was junk. And I've always heard never by an American car the first year, no matter who makes it.

    This is also the first car I've had since my 2001 Chevy Tracker that hasn't had to go back to the dealer for something within the first month of owership. That includes my 2001 MB CLK320, my partner's 2001 530i and 3 Minis.

    Getting 40 MPG is still boggling my mind!
     
  5. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    Anyone have any 0-60 numbers?
    Maybe one of the Car Rags has tested it?
    Just curious how quick it is.
    It is maybe 20% down vs the Prius in FE, so I would hope it is suitable quicker-.
    A Honda Accord V-6 does it in under 6 seconds-gets close to 35 mpg at 60 mph.
    Yes I know acceleration isn't all there is to being sporty, but....

    Thanks
    Charlie
     
  6. msantos

    msantos Eco Accelerometrist

    Hi Charlie;

    According to those who have measured it... and for what it is, not very fast at all (as in: not less than 9 seconds).

    I am currently doing a week-long CleanMPG test of 2 CR-Z's (a CVT model and a 6MT, with a head-to-head review coming up) and I find either of them to provide more than enough power to the wheels.
    Then again, I am not the one to even try a hard acceleration test as in my "religion", that amounts to extreme heresy. :D

    Cheers;

    MSantos
     
  7. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    msantos
    Thanks for the info.
    So these new CRXs are maybe a little bit quicker than the originals, but no one would describe them as "fast" or quick.They are faster than the HCH2 (12.5 0-60) but much slower accelerating than a 4 cyl Accord(mid 8 0-60)

    Do/will it outhandle the originals-assume updated tires and maybe fancier shocks/springs on the CRXs?

    Are they fun to drive? More fun than a Prius(very low bar)?-more fun than a MT 4 cyl Civic-?- what about a Focus or Mazda 3?

    I generally consider a car "good "if it gets great mpg-that is it for me now. Why else would I own a Prius-mpg-not for its fun to drive quotient.

    Honda is selling this as a fun to drive "tuner" type Hybrid?
    I see Psyshack's problem with it. It should be better-much much better than the original CRX. Is it?
    If you installed a 200 hp 2.4 4 cyl in it-with a 6 speed MT with a very tall 6th gear-it would be a sportier car-forget the hybrid aspect-just make it light ,small and fast with decent aerodynamics and very tall 6th gear(hy).
    I'm not sure Honda hit the mark with this car.What were they aiming for?
    Charlie
     
  8. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    I think you hit on the problem. It's hard to hit a dozen different targets with a single arrow.
     
  9. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    PaleMelanesian

    What they delivered was a car with roughly Insight MPG- but less than 4 cyl Civic performance-and a price above both. Like you say-they missed because they tried to nail too many targets.



    Imagine a Hotrod Prius- it has the bigger motor already-BUT PUT IN A 1.5X -2X electric motor-maybe one from a Camry or Highlander- it would be a 7 second 0-60 car. Yes, there would be a 10%-15% mpg penalty, but it would be quickish.Not sure just who it would appeal to, but...
    Charlie
     
  10. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Super Moderator Staff Member

    My wife. She finds the Prius a bit unresponsive even in PWR mode. Your Prioomph would be more to her tastes.
     
  11. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    ItsNotAbout- yes me too-I would probably actually save my money and buy a Camry or Highlander "motored" Prius.

    Maybe a 180 hp ICE(could be a 4 cyl easily enough) 100-120 HP electric with 200 lb ft.

    Now I would find a way to pay $30,000 for one of them.

    The weight would balloon to 3200 lbs probably-No free lunch-heavier ICE, heavier electric motor, more BP- But fun is worth something, and it could still get very close to 50 mpg hy at 60 mph. City would suffer-maybe 45 mpg -not 51.

    Honda just missed on this car-not enough zip.

    Charlie

    I would really like a stretched Prius-190"-for roadtrips- carry all the dogs, cats, humans on trips and evacuations-(just 2 humans and one dog on vacation)
     
  12. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    Agreed - they need to make a good niche car instead of the next great car.
     
  13. CR-Zmarty

    CR-Zmarty Member

    phoebeisis:
    Anyone have any 0-60 numbers?

    My highly scientific testing (buddy with a chronograph) yielded the following at full throttle - A/C off (CVT):

    ECON mode: 11.2 sec

    NORMAL mode: 8.9 sec

    SPORT mode: 7.8 sec

    SPORT mode using 7-speed paddles: 7.5 sec
     
  14. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    CR-Zmarty- Thanks!-This kinda changes everything.
    7.5- not too bad really.It is much much faster than the original CRX.
    If this is correct(I'll check to moto mags times),I might have to revise my opinion.
    Still, this is just a bit better than a 4 cyl Accord and much much slower than a 6 cyl Accord.

    7 speed paddles on a CVT- more Honda magic allowing some real control over that CVT-??

    So, is there any practical way to hotrod it?

    7.5 is not bad-not the 5.9 of the Hybrid Accord, or the even quicker current 6 cyl Accord(or Camry, or any other current 6 cyl)-roughly what a warmed over Civic will do-maybe the SI Civic?

    7.5 is waaaay faster than 9 seconds.Not quick, but not a fake sporty car either.Will it smoke the tires-drift if required-harder with FWD- it is FWD, right?

    Thanks
    Charlie
    PS- I will try to see if the moto mags have tested it-I'll post what I find. XCEL will kinda wonder about all the reformed hotrodders here reverting to form(just kidding).
     
  15. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    I checked Motortrend

    Their times with the 6 speed MT
    0-60= 8.3 seconds
    1/4 mile 16.4 83.6 mpg.

    These are almost exactly what a late model VW Golf TD got in a recent comparison.

    Charlie
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2010
  16. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    So the CVT is significantly faster than the 6MT? Could this just be from elimination of clutching pauses?
     
  17. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    I checked with my dealer yesterday concerning CRZ. They are selling them for $388 above invoice. They had a CV-spit-spit-T in stock. I thought what the hell. I will drive up there and give that one a test drive. The wife is out of town for the weekend. So I got time to burn. :)

    I was over half way to my dealer when my salesman called and told me the CRZ had just sold. Cars move fast at my dealer. And it was the only one they had. He didn't want me to waste a trip as it's a 50 miles drive to the dealer from my office. Seeing I was 35 miles into the trip I kept going. After all I could drink coffee smoke a few cigs and watch from a far as a owner took possession of a new car. That new car smile is priceless. :) Plus I had already settled into a solid 50 mpg run in the always composed MZ3.

    As luck would have it the salesman introduced us. I was given the honor of being the resident dealership hypermiler. :) With a evil side. :D I gave them some pointers and a very quick clinic. The new owner did not seem very excited about the possibility's of massive mpg over epa. But was hoping to enjoy the car and get typical Honda over epa numbers. He did show basic interest in wanting to understand the hybrid system and understand the basics of battery management. The hybrid system introduction may have help'ed with him wanting to put in a massive audio upgrade. I showed him my Bass-Link in the trunk of the MZ3 and stressed to him that would be the very most I would do to introduce a tad of thump to any hybrid. Electrical draw and weight kill's hybrids. It's a fine line we walk.

    He was also interested in a wheel and tire upgrade. I cautioned him concerning this. And to do it right will cost a very pretty penny IMHO. I shared with him the average / common wheel and tire packages folks buy for cosmetic improvement will take 2 to 4 mpg off your over all mpg. And if done completely wrong will ruin the cars handling and acceleration. I shared with him what I've been looking at for wheel/tires and sway bars for the HCHII. It's not cheap and comprise will have to be made concerning mpg.

    He had a evil twinkle in his eye. He is not a kid. I recognized the glimmer of past glory in his face and physical body engilsh. He was indeed very comfortable in the cockpit of his new car. :) Then the question was asked. How will CRZ hold up to other cars in its class? I started out with,, It is in it's own class to date except for the 7th gen hybrid Accord and maybe a Lexus. I told him,,, Don't be picking fights in this car. Yaris, Fit, Smart entry level Rollas, Elantras and such will be easy pickings more than likely. Do Not Think you can roll with anything that say's Si in OEM condition, adult driven. Trying a MZ3 like mine will result in the Mazda chewing you up and spitting out little Honda Cub 50's. You may hang well with a 5AT 8th gen Civic. But a 5MT 8th gen will spank you IMHO as a past owner of such a car. I reminded him there is a very active SCCA Chapter in Tulsa that would love to see him give the CRZ a Auto Cross work out. :)

    I shared with the gentalman where he could find us and he was more than welcome to stop by, join up and share with us about his CRZ. :D

    As for me. I just can't get into the car. It does not have CRX magic. It's mission seems far to blurred and way out of focus. Of small Honda coupes it seems lost. Again NO CRX magic, NO (real) Insight magic. And it does not seem to have the refinement of current production R-18 coupes. Nor the manors. It does not seem to have the light feel of a Fit with want to be flea type movement ability's. Between the CRX and want to be Insight I have found respect for the Fit I never had before. Of the Fit spin off's ,,,, The Fit is still the best of the three IMO >>>> Less the important mpg numbers.
     
  18. phoebeisis

    phoebeisis Well-Known Member

    RightLane
    Motortrend didn't comment on the CVT.
    Usually moto mag guys tear the heck out of cars trying to max the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times, so the 8.3 is probably a very good time for a CR-Z.

    How did your buddy know he was doing 60 mph?
    My guess-just a guess- is 7.5 is too much quicker to be explained by just time lost to shifting- but Isn't the CVT supposed to keep it at 6000 RPMs(just a guess ) the whole time? No 6000 dropping to 4000, 6000 dropping to 4500, 6000 dropping to 5000 and such..
    Do CVTs- usually beat the MT versions(maybe Nissan makes same/same cars with MT vs CVT) in 0-60? I'm guessing they could but .8 seconds is a lot.

    Why would anyone buy a MT if the CVT was that much quicker? Quick is pretty much everything in a sporty car-quick acceleration, quick deceleration, quick change in direction- QUICK is it !

    I know Psyshack loves his CVT in his HCH2. He has frequently, very frequently, commented on what a fine piece of equipment it is.
    I would be disappointed that it was only as quick as a 3100 lb 5 passenger 140 hp TD Golf.
    Swing and a miss by Honda.

    Charlie
     
  19. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    I would like to see some video of a CRX pulling those numbers. Brand new my 06 Civic Sedan 5mt was a solid 8 - 7.5 second 0-60 car. After break in that went to 7.5 - 7.0 bone stock. With under 7.0 if a good launch was at hand and 1st to 2nd shift was smooth and quick. Only first and second gear used for it's best times. After all it was a Honda and liked to rev. :) When brand new third gear was used.
     
  20. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles


    Charlie

    I wanted CRZ to be much more with less. My CRZ would be a show case and benchmark effort to high light the new Honda with grass root Honda engineering. My CRZ would have been the show case for a reworked R-18 in hybrid fashion. The interior would be edgy. But not look like a transformer studio team designed it. While I hate the parrot fish mouth looking grill on CRZ. The production version looks better than the prototype. I think the car would look great in a stealth out denim black with the windows tinted. :D If only to take that damn grill out as a visual focal point. My CRZ would slot into a wide open area as a best in class between Civic Coupe and Si anything. And define the effort with a engineering ability to make a modern CRX that encompass's HF to Si in one tidy little package. From wicked mpg getter to a birth of a Bonsai fun tweaky little mpg getter. And if anybody could do it. Honda could have in spades! And to be honest! I think taking a 1.3 out of the HCHII and putting a turbo on it was a valid option also. With a good dose of of IMA. Then maybe Sport, Normal and Eco would have truly amazing differences. I could enjoy a tri-polar car. :shade::shade::shade:

    This car in the hands of Honda Engineers had the chance to be the small eco all around ricer base car with a touch or GT touring flavor and a real cool city presence.

    Sooooo Honda has swung the bat. Will Yota bring out a Spider type car full of there hybrid tech? Will this spur Ford/Mazda to unleash there engineers. Whats Fiat got up there sleeve's? Is Nissan truly caught up in engineering muck and myer. Does GM have something in Volt for the future like they did once before in a different time. That gave us Impala to Camaro? Can we the American tax payer and GM produce a game changing car and a platform that will make us proud? Can the Germans put out a under engineered game changing car like the Beetle again with all it's campish splendor?

    While I question the CRZ's execution. I'm at least thankful for Honda's marketing effort. And limited investment of a hybrid fun car and putting it on the lot for sale. ( it is a bin car :( ) I hope it sells good enough to make the other manufactures take note.
     

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