Kickin' it up a notch

Discussion in 'Start Your Journey Here' started by Bruce, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. locutus

    locutus MPG Centurion

    This is an awesome idea. I nominate Wayne to post the first video. ;)

    It sounds like you guys in the NE have it pretty bad w/regard to clueless driver impatience and RR, but I can vouch that the midwestern "nice" has yet to extend to driving. Coasting to a stop sign/light is the worst, followed by P&G on 30 MPH roads with some tailgater who wants to do 40 just to get to the next stop sign. The speed variation inherent in a "full" P&G doesn't work so well.

    ...but this makes it all worth it.
     
  2. tarabell

    tarabell Well-Known Member

    I agree that videos demonstrate some of this stuff in a way nothing else (short of being there) will do.

    I know there’s already a couple of Wayne illustrating diagrams of drafting techniques somewhere and I think some driving videos made by him and some other hypermilers, but it takes a while to find them. Some might need reformatting to be directly viewable though? There’s also Psy’s infamous Okie FAS.

    Tom/Wayne, we have a Multi-Media category in the Gallery, would it be possible to collect stuff like this here? They would be a big help to everyone, especially new folks.
     
  3. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    tarabell

    I think there is some concerns about video's and such. Take mine for example. I do alot of high speed fas'ing. Also fas in the city alot. Hard to get video of city fas'ing. It can get real busy,, real fast... :)

    For me its not a problem. I have enough strenght and raw power to stop my cars with or without power brakes, steer it and pretty much anything else that can happen with ice off. I would hate to see somebody have a wreck because they didnt know the car's limits or there's.

    I think some detailed videos of load driving. Engine shut off at lights. and other simple tatctics would be great!

    Ive done my vid's mainly for wayne and others that drive alot of hwy. I would hate for a noob to get hurt doing the same thing and not understanding fully how or whats at stake.

    psy
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    I know as a newbie, it took a bit of digging before I figured out what "re-engagement of the Tranny with rev match" in the P&G description really meant. I originally interpreted it as starting the engine, then giving the gas a tap as you're putting it in gear. I later found out that it meant putting it in gear as soon as the engine lights up. Who knows what else I'm doing wrong? All I know at this point is that P&G doubles Wayne's mileage and makes mine worse.

    If you post on Youtube, there's probably about as much risk from that as there is a video of somebody doing 150 or sliding sideways, and there are plenty of the latter.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2007
  5. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bruce:

    ___Hobbit lives up in Boston and I think maybe you need a first hand clinic with him as he throws his Prius II into a Pulse and a Glide scenario on whatever no-traffic back road is available.

    ___I know you do not drive a Prius but Carl Hurschik’s and Dan Kroushl's Prius opened up a ton of possibilities for me and I know it will for you once you see both the results and how the Prius can do it so seamlessly vs. our swinging everything but the kitchen sink at our non-hybrids vehicles by comparison.

    ___Would you be interested, as I will PM Hobbit when I hear the word go. We will have to pull him away from all the tech talk and get him honed in on just Pulse and Glide and maybe a touch warp stealth but that is beyond your cars abilities. We can FAS and he can’t ;) I think it will help you once you see it in person …

    ___Tarabell, I guess we had better get on it then. I will do some vids when it warms up as I am not going to do a FE technique vid w/ a subpar effort in these lousy temps ;)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  6. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    I would say that the biggest key to my success is my driving environment. I live in an area where the roads are relatively straight and most of the hills(if there are any)are fairly gentle. The roads are generally 1 mile apart and stops are anywhere from 1-3 miles apart. Also, my driving is probably 80-90% on rural county roads. I usually chose my route based on which one is the least travelled and that can vary at different times of the day and on different days.


    The above is VERY important. Tim said it so well that I won't comment further.
     
  7. VaBeachPrius

    VaBeachPrius Well-Known Member

    Sorry to be late for the party. I had emailed Delta Flyer an idea a week or so ago. I have been really busy at work.

    I have a miniDV recorder that has four video inputs; I believe. I was going to position a video recorder on the four following positions for my entire commute to work.

    1. Speedometer / Trip meter
    2. Energy Screen / Consumption Screen
    3. Front Windshield
    4. Rear Windshield.

    The beauty of this is that one will be able to see all four video inputs at once and they are all synched (sp?) with each other. I can email a DVD of the movie or with someone's help upload it to the web.

    Brick,

    I post consistent numbers by driving slowly all the time. Some days I really want to punch it, but I don't. I am obsessing too much about my mpg. I am trying to top the 71.8 mpg average at greenhybrid.com. Only if someone would update the database, I might be able to sleep. :D I think it will take me until mid summer to do it. I need to let it go. The 25F am weather is killing me. Luckily, the temperatures are still positive and there are only a few weeks until spring.

    I am only showing 71.5 mpg over 320 miles on the MFD. :p As I said before, this tank will calculate a little higher than normal since I gave my car the gas washdown at the last fillup.:mad:

    It was at 77.4 mpg at 226 miles before the weather changed from 74F to 25F.
     
  8. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    I'd be interested in a ride-along with Hobbit, perhaps next weekend or around dinnertime Mon, Wed or Fri next week. I'm not sure I'd learn as much from a hybrid hypermiler, but it's certainly worth a try.

    The Prizm has a fairly low idle fuel consumption when warm (~1-1.1 l/hr = .28 GPH) and I average about .9-1 GPH on a drive, so it appears that ICE-off glides only have a significant, positive impact if they're for a really long time -- on the order of 30-60 seconds. They seem to work best for downhills with a decreasing speed limit; downhills where speed is maintained or gained while coasting; coasting to a stop at lights or signs; exiting an expressway and level low-speed or slightly downhill residential streets with zero traffic.

    My trips have been in the 37-38 MPG range the last day or so. This morning's commute was in sandy slush. In general, trips have been 35-40 MPG range lately with the occasional short jaunt that only pulls 30 or so because of the warm-up hit. I have yet to see P&G come near the efficiency of cruising on the expressway at 50-55 MPH (~42 MPG) in my situation, let alone surpass it as others have reported.

    I'm finding that I'm better able to plan for the terrain on roads other than expressways, since I'm familiar with them from cycling. I still haven't memorized most of the terrain on the expressway that I use.

    Perhaps I need to try driving my cycling route home, since it's specifically designed to avoid traffic as much as possible and I'm already familiar with the terrain. However, there are a lot of stops and hills, since it uses mostly residential streets. Unfortunately, a lot of the stops are at the bottom of hills. :(

    I finally figured out this morning that I could FAS for the last block into my parking space at work merely by using a parking space closer to the entrance. :) A blinding flash of the obvious, as it were.

    MetroMPG posted a video of basic FE techniques at http://metrompg.com/posts/online-video.htm; I watched it a few months ago.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2007
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bruce:

    ___That vid was cool! DWL, DWB, Anticipatory focus and Rabbit timing, superior setup and even a bit on FCD’s. I wonder if MetroMPG was the guy in it or somebody else?

    ___Thanks for the link. I hope MetroMPG stops by and gives us the scoop ;)

    ___I will try and get a hold of Hobbit tonight to see when he is available.

    ___Chris, wait until warmer temps when you can throw up a 100 mpg segment to really shock them :D

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  10. MetroMPG

    MetroMPG Well-Known Member

    Yep, I was the guy in it, lo those many (14?) years ago. Back in the day... before the techniques had acronyms. :D
     
  11. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bruce:

    ___I PM’d Hobbit so hopefully you can see what is possible in a hybrid and then use the same techniques in your non-hybrid although forced.

    ___Darin, excellent job on the vid. I wish even more where aware of it!

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  12. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    Wow, okay, I just managed to catch up on this thread and the
    PMs. Sorry, been WAY busy with Arisia and this training thing.
    .
    Some ride-around and testing could certainly be done, although
    I suspect the Prius will differ fairly radically in some ways
    from a non-hybrid machine. Overall traffic-management technique
    would be the same, of course, as Wayne says. One thing I'd
    immediately advocate for anyone serious about this in a non-hybrid
    is a "FAS switch" or injector power cutoff, for killing the
    engine without having to key-off and reboot everything. This
    would probably be a fairly simple mod but one would want to
    consult the vehicle's wiring diagram to make sure it's done right.

    Still, if you're into the idea of watching my extra gauges
    swingin' around and generally getting into some possibilities,
    I might be able to make some time for you and anyone else local
    who thinks my input would have value...
    .
    Oh, right, and there are some cool traffic-flow animations up
    under http://amasci.com/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html that show
    how things work a lot better when larger spacing is maintained.
    .
    _H*
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2007
  13. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    BTW, how do users put their mileage into their signature? I haven't been able to figure this out from the FAQs.
     
  14. JimboK

    JimboK One owner, low mileage

    Try entering this exact text in your sig:

    (img)http://www.cleanmpg.com/garage/images/308.png(/img)

    ... then change the parentheses to square brackets.

    If you paste it, it might include "url" in square brackets too. Delete those. The message editor thinks it's smarter than me and that I'm trying to paste a link here. I'm not smart enough to figure out how to make it do otherwise.

    This is for your car, BTW. 308 is what identifies it as such. If you want it to show recent history (like mine), add "his" (without quotes) as a prefix to 308.

    To the mods: I had a little trouble figuring it out at first too. How about a sticky?
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2007
  15. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    Thanks!

    I'd suggest putting it in the FAQ, since that's where I looked for it...but I'm still figuring out the website. :Banane10:

    thanks, Bruce
     
  16. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    Okay, let's give it a try...here's my morning commute and the way I'm currently driving it:

    Get in, open the garage door, Key to IG-II, put in N and release handbrake, push car with
    foot out door to get rolling, then close car door quickly before it hits the garage door frame.
    Halfway down driveway, turn car lights on and check that street is clear. Turn
    onto street, hit garage remote and fasten seatbelt. If car coasts to end of street, start
    it there, if not, start, briefly put in drive then NICE-on coast to end of street.

    Stop, turn right, accelerate slowly up hill and hold speed once in second gear. At crest,
    allow speed to reach 23 MPH, then FAS to end of street. If street is clear (T with
    cul-de-sac to left, so it's technically a yield) relight, turn and put in gear to hold
    speed up hill. At top of hill, the road flattens out. I'll usually keep it at 25-30
    through a couple of left turns, usually NICE-on coasting in between because the distances
    to the turns are short.

    After the second left, accelerate to about 30 and FAS down a gradual downhill to the corner,
    after which it goes up again. When speed is down to about 15, relight and accelerate
    uphill to about 23 at the peak, then FAS to a stop. All the speed limits up to this point
    have been 20-30 MPH.

    Turn left onto a very slightly downhill road with a speed limit of 35 MPH. I'll usually
    accelerate to 30 and hold it there, since the car won't coast very long unless there's
    a significant downhill. Near the end of the street, it starts going downhill quicker,
    followed by a sharp rise to an overpass, followed by a downhill to a yield sign. I'll
    usually accelerate to 40 on the downhill, crest the top barely moving, then accelerate
    into the turn if traffic is clear.

    At that point, I'm on a busy 2-lane US highway with limited passing zones; if I travel
    substantially below the speed limit, traffic will accumulate behind me. The speed limit
    is 30, soon increasing to 40 and then 45, which works well because there's a very mild
    downhill staircase at the same time to help with acceleration. The 45 MPH zone starts
    at the base of a steep hill, where traffic is often turning left halfway up. If things
    are clear, I'll try to accelerate to 45 by the base of the hill to lock up the TCC, bleed
    off to 40 during the climb, keep the same pedal position until it hits 45 on the other
    side, then start a FAS.

    The steep downhill is followed by a ~1/4-mile stretch followed by a 35 MPH zone and a
    short staircase climb. I'm usually down to about 30 in the FAS at this point, so I'll
    relight, accelerate to hit 40 by the top of the climb, then FAS again.

    A short downhill, followed by another ~1/4 mile stretch to the first traffic light,
    during which the speed limit drops to 25 MPH. The light has an extremely short,
    traffic-controlled cycle with a short yellow. I'll often relight to try to make a
    green, only to have it turn before I get there. Usually I'll have the best luck if
    I just let it glide through the intersection, traffic permitting.

    On the far side of the intersection, a short flat section is followed by a steep hill
    and a 35 MPH speed limit. I usually accelerate to 40 in the flat section and allow
    my speed to bleed off to 30 during the climb. On the backside, I'll back off the
    accelerator and allow the speed to climb to 45 by the bottom so the TCC will lock up
    for the next climb -- a long, steady grade followed by a flat section through a
    business district. If traffic ahead permits, I'll hold it at exactly 40 through
    all of this.

    Just after the business district, the speed limit increases to 40; I'll increase the
    throttle position slightly and DWL in a 40-45 MPH range with the TCC locked through
    a flat section with a short dip in the road. After about a mile, the speed limit
    increases again to 45 on a very slight downhill, followed by a long flat section of
    about 1/2 mile. I'll continue to DWL, trying to stay in a 40-45 range and keeping
    the TCC locked up.

    If the traffic light ahead is red, FAS to a stop; if not, continue to travel at 40-45.
    The speed limit changes to 40 MPH.

    Start down a staircase descent, hit 45 by the end of the first flat, then start a
    FAS. Continue to FAS over a couple of stairs, during which the speed limit decreases
    to 35 MPH. At the start of the last descent before the bottom, relight and accelerate
    from 35 to 40, then DWL up a steep hill toward the expressway interchange, hitting the
    exit at about 25 MPH.

    Accelerate quickly through a dip in the short on-ramp to 45 MPH, and merge onto
    the expressway. The expressway is 4 lanes each direction, with short, steep hills,
    short sight distances, and about 10 interchanges and a rest area during the 6 miles
    I'm on it. The speed limit is 55 MPH, 45 minimum; very heavy traffic fills the roadway
    at speeds ranging between about 80 for the left lane to about 55 for the right. I'll
    usually take the right lane and DWL with a constant throttle position unless a good
    draft target passes by at a comparable speed. A TPS of 17 generally keeps me in
    the 50-60 MPH range, unless it's cold and/or windy.

    Near the end of the stretch, 4 lanes become three partway up a steep rise. I'll
    usually change the TPS to 18 in advance of this to keep my speed at 45 by the crest
    of the hill. On the back side, I'll continue to hold the constant throttle to 60
    MPH, then FAS to my exit.

    I usually hit the cloverleaf ramp at about 45, quickly declerate to 30 on the
    incline and relight the engine to maintain speed and merge with traffic. Once
    safely positioned in traffic, FAS again down a slight grade to a hairpin turn
    on a side street, braking as necessary.

    Relight, accelerate to 30 and slowly bleed off speed to the next intersection, turning
    left onto a side street and accelerating to 30 again. FAS down the street, braking
    slightly for the turn into the company parking lot, and coast to a stop into a
    parking space.

    Any suggestions?
     
  17. PaleMelanesian

    PaleMelanesian Beat the System Staff Member

    I'd love to see the analysis on this. It'll help me a whole lot with my own drive.
     
  18. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Bruce:

    ___Wow, that was some detail! I will try and add my thoughts later tonight or by the weekend unless Larry or Psy beat me to it :)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  19. Bruce

    Bruce cheapskate

    Thanks!

    For reference, the segments I posted this morning:

    Segment A: 1.7 miles, 27.9 MPG
    Segment B: 5.3 miles, 35.6 MPG
    Segment C: 8.4 miles, 48.0 MPG
    Total: 15.4 miles, 39.7 MPG

    Segment A ended and B started at the start of paragraph 4 ("Turn left onto a very slightly downhill road...");
    Segment B ended and C started on "a long flat section of about 1/2 mile" in paragraph 9. There's a police station on that stretch, which makes a good landmark.

    Thanks again -
     
  20. psyshack

    psyshack He who posts articles

    Bruce

    That is some great detail. The detail to you driving your daily grind is awsome!!! And I mean it!!! Very good work on your part. Class A...

    You keep mentioning TCC. I would think your working with torque converter lock up correct? If so the speeds sure indicate it. This is a problem with the I4 5AT Accords. Basic rule of thumb for me in our Accord is if Im not going to beable to get up to 44 to 47 mph and get lock up. Then keep a very light foot. If 45 mph or better is in the near future then Im abit heavy on the gas to get it up to speed,,, and locked up. Then I can bleed speed if needed pretty well in ours. I dont think xcels responds quite as good as ours doing the bleed down in lock up.

    One thing that kept leaping out at me reading your report was how hard you are working FAS. This is good. And ice on coasting if I read it right. It would be nice to see in some of your higher speed area's of the drive. Some up hill coasting or FAS'ing. This goes against convention. But it can be very useful. maybe bust into a FAS or ice on coast just before you crest a hill. Then work it alittle father back if possible. Im going to be working on this a bit harder this spring and summer,, and in low wind conditions.

    I would think your Yota clone would truly be a bit more thrifty. It will be intresting to see what your spring and summer numbers are like.

    With 53f this morning and a new ECU in my Civic I did a 48 mpg segment into work this morning. I was running late so I didnt push it hard. Hope it goes that well this evening....

    Good Job
    psy
     

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