The myth of pulse and glide

Discussion in 'Fuel Economy' started by Chuck, Jul 11, 2009.

?

Has pulse and glide worked for you?

  1. Yes

    80.8%
  2. No

    17.3%
  3. What is P&G?

    1.9%
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  1. cpeter38

    cpeter38 Right Lane Dweller

    I can only answer this question because I have no knowledge of the actual answer. My guess is that there will be an immobilizing function. I cannot comment any further for reasons that truly sadden me (and anyone else who works in a big organization).

    Let me be very clear. If I purchased an EV focus, the first modification I would make would be to bypass that function.
     
  2. cpeter38

    cpeter38 Right Lane Dweller

    The NiMH EV Ranger's battery pack has not aged well in the Midwest climate. I worry about ANY pure EV in a cold climate. Take your pick of battery chemistries - they all suffer greatly in the cold.

    For those who would like to educate themselves, there is an excellent resource available on the web. The information at this website is pretty accurate and good.

    Back to my point about winter with BEVs - drivers also seem to want a warm, frost free interior!! Current battery technology does not (and may never) deliver a full range/capability ZEV in winter weather. Fuel cell vehicles have demonstrated a reasonable range/capability, but they are not currently "in vogue". I hope that at some point the powers that be will address ZEV operation in winter conditions for those of us that live in fly over country ...
     
  3. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    I had heard that battery warmers were to be incorporated into the Focus... I expect that would sap around 15% of the range (just a guess). Even with diminished capacity, the shortest round trip for my work commute is right at 35mi so 100mi AER in good weather should be sufficient.

    If I get one of those Focus EVs, I'm contacting you to help me figure out how to disable any immobilizer!!

    Here's a different idea. How about Ford makes available a special generator with their own proprietary connection? Then we can come at this the other way -- if I can use it as a multipurpose generator so that I can run my house off of it when the power is out, I'm good! :)
     
  4. Taliesin

    Taliesin Well-Known Member

    I will admit that if I was still in North Dakota it may not be a good choice. But then I was only driving 3 miles each way to/from work, and my vehicles never really warmed up so I was nice and frosty for the drive anyway. My current situation is a little different with warmer temps, though it may be that I would need to put the generator in during the winter for a few more miles.

    After retirement we might be moving somewhere warmer, so it would work even better.
     
  5. iamian

    iamian Well-Known Member

    I 100% agree... and eventually when I have nothing better to do with tons of time and money... That is the ultimate direction I would like to eventually take my Gen-I Insight to... but that could easily take me another 5 or 10 years ... who knows what other options will be out there by then... Maybe a Twike/Aptera with Generator trailer :woot:

    It isn't just batteries ...

    Rolling resistance is higher in the cold for any vehicle.
    Aerodynamic drag is higher in the cold for any vehicle.
    ICE efficiencies are lower when they are cold.

    etc... etc...

    Any vehicle will suffer in the cold ... and end up using more energy per mile to travel.

    The batteries themselves do suffer when they are cold ... but that particular effect is treatable with the thermal mass of the batteries ... with good insulation , or thermal management of the batteries ... and the heat the batteries will generate while in use for charging or discharging.

    Cold Gasoline also suffers even if the engine itself is warmed up... it just tends to be less noticeable sense gasoline contains soo much energy.

    All those features + AC in the summer ... etc... just cost energy ... weather it reduces your MPG to channel some of the gasoline energy to give you those things ... or if it reduces your miles per charge to use some of your battery power to provide some of those things... or if it reduces your miles per tank of hydrogen ... either way energy is energy.

    I will definitely agree though ... this just comes back to the massive energy density that gasoline has... as giving such vehicles an edge with the consumer.

    It doesn't matter if the energy comes from a battery ... Hydrogen ... Gasoline ... Hydraulics ... etc... it just comes down to how much fuel energy your system will use to give you want you want... and if the on board fuel energy storage system will then offer you that level of energy usage for the durations you want.

    Keep in mind ... the energy needed to heat , cool , etc a vehicle can be substantial .... but generally speaking ... in comparison to the massive amounts of energy it takes to move most vehicles ... moving the vehicle usually still ends up being the larger energy sink.

    As an Example:
    An EV getting ~5 Miles per kWh travels 50 miles at an average speed of 50 MPH. It would consume ~10 kwh of energy to move the vehicle. It would take ~1 Hour to travel that distance. A climate control system that sucks down 10 kwh in ~1 hour could heat or cool your whole house very easily. It would be serious over kill for a mobile / vehicular application. At most the climate control system would see spikes of high kW usage ... just as the drive system sees spikes of high kW usage during acceleration ... But there again I would still strongly suspect that the drive system peak kW surges dominate , and are significantly larger than any the climate control system would see.


    True... but you also introduce significant increase in un-sprung weight.

    Yup.
    But equally true of any vehicle strategy that disconnects the ICE to keep it running as efficiently as possible.

    Always one of my top criteria personally.
    But at least for me ... it is never alone... there will always be a bit of a balancing act between competing issues.

    That would be nice.
    But the systems I've seen that offer similar kW peaks and kWh of storage have all weighed significantly more than even the nearly ~10 year old Gen-I IMA system... much less what can be done today with modern options.


    Why?

    You pulse the ICE into it's best BSFC.

    In your system the accumulator converts the mechanical power into hydraulic pressure.
    A HEV converts the mechanical energy into battery chemical energy.

    In your system you P&G the Engine without P&G the vehicle itself.
    Any HEV that can run the ICE and regen function without applying power to the wheels ... like being in neutral... can do the same type of thing.

    Or if the system was a ICE + Flywheel system instead of storing the energy in the hydraulic pressure ... or the chemical batteries ... it could store it in the mechanical energy of the fly wheel.

    Or any other type of energy storage system.

    A wide variety of alternative approaches can all get this same effect.

    Now that might very well be true.

    but it might not...
    Some of the Li Batteries are up near ~98% cycle efficiencies.
    Capacitors are even better.
    Some control electronics like Split-Pi and MPPT can get up near ~99% efficient.
    Electric motors can get very high in efficiencies.

    So I could understand how it might be more efficient to go with a Hydraulic system... but I'm not ready to say 'ever'... I think there is easily potential to have a electrical based system that can get near to the same kinds of efficiencies ... especially as things continue to improve.


    In theory.
    In practice, there is always a limit to the ratios... and a limit to the minimum steps / increments between ratios... materials have limits... there are limits of required sizes... etc.

    But I will agree there are other types of transmissions that will have much larger Ratio options... and some that offer finer details of smaller increments between ratio changes.


    Agreed.

    But In-Wheel Electric Motors with similar transmissions also have the same benefit.

    No bad feelings here at all :)

    I agree under allot of conditions ~95% efficiency is more of an upper end ... there are plenty of Battery types like PbA that only tend to get in the ~80% cycle efficiency range ... and some control electronics are only ~70% efficient... etc.

    But we can be equally less optimistic with the Hydraulic system ;)

    September 2008,
    Maybe ... but the accumulator can very easily also be well bellow 90% efficiency as well.

    It ends up depending on the specifics of a given system and conditions is is used under ... some accumulators under some conditions can have very high Efficiencies ... but the same can be said for the electric systems as well.

    Depending on the equipment and conditions used. ;)

    with up to ~92% efficiency in Sep 2008 ... 92% going in... 92% coming out... means those few systems in Sep 2008 got a hydraulic cycle efficiency of ~84%... which many types of electrical systems can do better than... especially if the hydraulic system gets bellow that ~92%.


    Maybe ... but I haven't seen any that are that compact and light weight while still being that efficient... do you happen to have any in mind I can read up on?

    Maybe.
    I think it is defiantly something worth looking into either way.
    Options / alternatives are always nice.
    Not all paths progress at equal paces.
    the path with better advancements today might level off while some other option continues to improve.
     
  6. cpeter38

    cpeter38 Right Lane Dweller

    Let me preface my remarks with the following philosophy from 28 years of working on cars, education, and experience in the industry:
    The customer has to have expectations that are in line with what the vehicle can deliver. It is unlikely that any vehicle technology will be judged viable by the "masses" if more than 2% of the customers that purchased the vehicle are dissatisfied with it.

    The number above is a ballpark number and changes with different vehicles and different car companies "mass market" perceptions. However, there are numerous studies that show that a dissatisfied customer is typically 10-20 times more vocal about their dissatisfaction than a satisfied customer. Any vehicle technology that has a reputation of being "equally" hated and loved is dead in the water.

    A new technology must either equal a conventional internal combustion engine in capabilities that are important to the customer, or the manufacturer and/or sales force must proactively address the issue. Examples: it has limited power, but it gets incredible gas mileage; it has a limited range and no option to refill quickly, but we rent smart trailer range extenders for $50/wk; etc.

    Bottom line, the customer must perceive a greater value for the new technology in order to buy it. Even if the value is "smug factor", it still must outweigh the default value in the customer's mind and it must do so for the length of time the customer owns the vehicle.
    I'd like to address the 5 numbered points from above (BTW, no disagreement with the substance of your points. Just my personal thoughts and the relationship to the philosophy I hold on these points):
    1.) I cannot think of a single vehicle that does NOT pay significant customer and efficiency penalties in extreme cold or heat. However, the vital question is how much of the range is used to get the vehicle to a habitable condition for 98% of your customers who purchase your vehicle.

    2.) While thermal issues are "treatable" it is not a trivial issue. The best solution is to be robust to the presence of extremes. Unfortunately, no practical amount of insulation can compensate for a weekend of no use with no energy being added into the system. The majority of the "mass market" will not tolerate this difficulty without significant educations.

    3.) Gasoline actually has 3 major advantages - it has an incredible energy density, the process of refueling is very quick, and the machinery to convert chemical energy to mechanical energy is very cheap. Without ALL 3 of these advantages, gasoline engine's horrid efficiencies would have killed it decades ago.

    4.) VERY WELL SAID!

    5.) In reality, thermal changes probably cost all technologies the same amount of energy. The problem is that the more efficient technologies do not have the spare energy to waste on thermal changes. The gasoline energy powered systems is so inefficient that most non-hypermilers barely even realize the energy loss associated with heating or cooling the car. However, they most definitely would notice if their range got chopped from 100 miles to 60 miles!!!

    Sorry for the treatise, but I think this is a very useful discussion to have.

    Do you agree with my points or do you think it should be worded differently?
     
  7. iamian

    iamian Well-Known Member

    No Issue at all here on my end.
    It's a good discussion. :)

    ~95% Agreement.

    Agreed.
    And as said... allot of that is very subjective to each person.

    A great example... I know people that just love their Twike's ... and they will list all the great parts about the Twike ... but to other people they might not value things with the same perspective ... and so they don't always end up having the same opinion about it.

    Excellent discussion of some of the issues ... agreement or not. :)

    Agreed
    Thanks for #4 ... :)

    I do agree with the 1st & 2nd sentences ...

    I did have a few comments about some of what follows after that.

    I'll break them apart into separate things so they don't get to jumbled up.

    #A>
    How much they will tolerate just comes back to what they want the car to do ... vs ... what it will end up doing.

    The vast majority of the public doesn't even use ~50 miles a day... This is why vehicles like the Volt are targeting ~40 Miles per charge... it will meet the EV range needs of the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time... and even this ~40 Miles is an under rating of the batteries true capacity... I have no doubt many hypermiler techniques could see this range far above 40 just as they get far above the EPA MPG.

    Will that be enough of a happy consumer base? ... we will have to wait and see ... so far for the most part ... only the smaller minority that feel strongly about it already have invested in PHEVs... and BEVs.... so it hasn't yet been a competition with / for the masses.

    Even in cold winter conditions ~50 Miles out of a modern Li BEV is very doable ... even with all the additional energy drains ... and limits of cold weather energy storage.

    ---------------

    #B>
    With hybrid generator system like those on-board the Volt ... or as a detachable trailer ... longer range issues >50 Miles a day warm with Ac or Cold weather already have solutions... even if they are not as preferred as a cleaner / more efficient operational condition.

    ---------------

    #C>
    I don't agree with:

    Although I guess that also still comes down to the specifics and conditions and that specific person... and how I might define 'practical'... etc.

    #C-1>
    I would first write that anybody that has a modern BEV will plug it in to charge ... if they don't end up using it for 2 days ... or 20 days ... modern BMS already has access to that power ... so no additional inconvenience to that customer... but there might be some additional costs if the system uses energy input... how much depends on how much energy is needed... maybe no additional energy ... maybe a considerable amount.

    #C-2>
    Everyone who has a garage attached to their house ... heated or not ... knows how much warmer than the outside that garage can be.... anybody who parks their BEV in a garage only has to have the battery Insulation + Thermal Mass tolerate those temperatures... Not true for everybody ... for anybody who does this ... it significantly changes the conditions... and there are lots of people with garages... the BEV battery can still have insulation ... which only combines with the conditions in this garage and the thermal mass of the batteries.

    #C-3>
    Given modern Insulation ... and the thermal mass of a BEV battery pack ... even a light weight Li one ... I think it is very doable in 'practical' amounts ... although I guess we might first have to better define this subjective term ... 'practical'.

    Common Hollow Fill Fibre Insulation for as good as it is... comes in with a thermal conductivity at ~0.042 W / ( m K ).

    I just Love thermal Insulation properties of Aerogel for example... with a thermal conductivity as low as 0.004 W / ( m K ).... or it insulates up to ~10x better than the insulation people use in their houses.

    There is whole group of EVers in Alaska:
    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/AlaskaEVA/

    In the words of a guy using his PbA EV in Alaska:

    And what if you remove the garage factor from the EV equation...
    Even in Alaska:

    So his System despite the cold ... the internal resistance of the batteries and the insulation was enough to still see a 4 Deg F temperature rise during use ... even while at 0 Deg F outside... during his commute.

    And even in 0 Deg F ... and without using a better thermal battery box ... his battery pack lost ~8 Deg F in 9 hours left out in 0 Deg F weather without an outside source of energy input...

    If it had been a more modern designed thermal management system in the box battery box ... he could have seen that same 8 deg F drop over as long as 10x that amount of time ... or up to ~90 Hours to drop ~8 Deg F while the Outside Temperatures are at 0 Deg F... still without any energy input... or the shelter of the garage.... both of which are also options.
     
  8. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    Very interesting info, Ian! With insulation performance like that, only a very small current would be needed by self powered battery heaters to maintain temperature in the coldest of temperatures. :)

    I guess my main concern was leaving the vehicle at the airport for a few days in a ramp during the winter. Without being able to plug it in, I wonder how it would do through multiple <-10F days (with nights approaching -30F)?
     
  9. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi All:

    ___I have a few minutes and skimmed the thread...

    ___P&G is in everyone's std. and daily routine if they know how to minimize fuel consumption with it or not. To prove it, accelerate to the speed limits and set your cruise control. Within a few seconds or minutes you will either run a red light or stop sign or crash into a merger or slower traffic in front of you. Let alone drive right through the back of your garage ;)

    ___This morning on my way home from NY I reset the 2010 Toyota Prius’ aFCD. The Prius’ SoC was at 4-bars while I was parked in a stop and crawl just before the Chicago Circle where I-90/94 (Dan Ryan Expressway), I-290 (Eisenhower Expressway) and I-90/94 (Kennedy Expressway) come together in downtown Chicago.

    [​IMG]
    8-miles out on the Kennedy.


    [​IMG]
    9-miles out about to exit the Kennedy.


    [​IMG]
    12-miles out on I-94 (Edens Expressway) just before the Touhy Ave. exit.


    [​IMG]
    14-miles out on I-94 (Edens Expressway) just before the Dempster Ave. exit.


    [​IMG]
    14-miles out on I-94 (Edens Expressway) just before Golf Road.


    [​IMG]
    28-miles out on Rt. 41 (of I was born on Highway 41 fame) just before Old Elm Road.


    [​IMG]
    28.5-miles out on Rt. 41 at Old Elm Road in grid lock. This was a particularly nasty 3-miles
    stop and crawl and I had a forced charge event begin just two blocks and about 3-minutes
    before the single lane utility work was passed :ccry:


    [​IMG]
    44.1-miles out after tens of Rt. 41 stop lights and now sitting in the drive...​

    ___A day in the life of a Chicago area road warrior and of course hypermiling including P&G, DWB, Rabbit Timing, RR, RP and all the rest do not work or cannot be achieved by mortals :rolleyes:

    ___If you accelerate improperly and decelerate improperly, FE is toast like everybody else’s. The above would allow maybe 15 mpg in an Accord for most drivers... If we do things right, our FE capability is superior by a long shot :)

    ___Ride, there is NOBODY that takes FE over everyone else at all costs. You will have to pull your head out on that statement and stop spreading non-sense as I have seen similar ramblings coming from you more than once recently... Additionally, your CVT based Insight is capable of 140 +, not just 100 mpg.

    ___Iamian, we have gone round and round on this just recently. You can study the books and the formula all you want. All the while the rest of us keep moving the bar because we practice and achieve everyday, not pretend we know what is exactly going on while achieving far less. Do not follow mr. bob’s road with a pathetic lmpg while trying to figure it out.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  10. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    Here is an example of how effective P&G is in my '07 Prius. The really cool thing is I have very little engineering background and don't fully understand drag coefficients or BSFC charts.:p:D
    94.6 6.3-home to wife's work
    111 6.3-wife's work to home
    86.3 3.0-home to daughter's friend's
    129 3.0-friend's to home
    100 6.3-home to wife's work
    108 6.3wife's work to home
    110 4.9-home to daughter's voice lessons
    112 5.0-voice lessons to home
     
  11. iamian

    iamian Well-Known Member

    That could be a good experiment. :)

    I agree 100% when well insulated it doesn't take much energy at all to keep a temperature up in the desired ranges.

    Think of the people who do very cold expeditions in extremely cold conditions... Arctic , Everest , Dark Side of the Moon ... and yet we have for years had the insulating technology needed to keep that arctic traveler warm in very very cold temperatures ... Either in some situations ... just with ones own body heat ... and in others ... with only tiny amounts of energy use... or the incredibly well insulated Liquid Hydrogen tanks that heat up very slowly , despite a massive temperature difference... for the insulation used to allow people to walk up to actively flowing lava.

    The built in green house effect in the car can help to warm the air some as well... maybe even a small not so expensive device could be used when parking in those conditions in order to better take advantage of some of that solar energy ... with a better green house type box ... or a PV type system.

    There are several interesting variations that could be tried.

    :D

    -------------------------

    Good... :biglol:

    Because with or without your blessing I will anyway... not much you can do about it even if you wanted to. ;)

    And just to be be fair ...
    You can go ahead and avoid studying all those pesky little details just as much as I study them... not much I can do about that either. ;)

    :eyebrow: :rolleyes:

    Other than in these questions themselves:

    Did I ever say or write you didn't practice?
    Did I ever say or write you haven't improved?
    Did I ever say or write you haven't had achievements?
    Did I ever say or write you were pretending to know exactly what is going on?

    The correct answer to all of those questions is... no.

    I don't think I ever claimed to know ... or even 'pretend to'... know exactly what is going on... I think a correct statement would be more along the lines of ... I have regularly stated that results can vary depending on different conditions ... and when I have some of those details I like to study that I think might be relevant , I will share some of those details.

    For Example ... ( Remember this is an example being used to illustrate some of those details I might be inclined to bring up. )

    Increasing one's speed during the pulse phase above the average speed traveled ... will result in higher rolling resistance and higher aerodynamic drag ... once the speed exceeds the average.

    Or when I email out to those who ask some of the charts and studies on the engine's performance under certain test conditions... I'm more than happy to share some of the knowledge ... including those technical details , that I have learned.

    which is why ... after accepting the truth of this detail about Rolling resistance and Aerodynamic Drag ... it was nice to move on with cpeter38 into a discussion of methods in which a vehicle could get some of the benefits of P&G without some of these ... pesky little details about the negative aspects of conventional vehicle P&G... perhaps by doing some type of engine P&G instead... and to do that we explored a bit more of a few surface details without getting very technical.

    I have sometimes tried to discuss various issues.

    Some of which might include those technical details I like to study.... some might be my opinions based on a variety of things.

    Do I know everything?... of course not ... just like everybody else.

    Can I make mistakes? ... sure ... just like everybody else.

    Who exactly is achieving less than who?

    Sense you don't know what I get... This can't be me .... ;)

    After all... you wouldn't just make up imaginary numbers about me ... and than treat your imaginary numbers as if they were correct when posting claims like this.

    Of course you wouldn't do that.... so it obviously isn't me.

    So, who is achieving less than who?

    ------------

    I still hold my same belief... sense no one has yet shown errors in the reasons I have this belief and combined that with justification for some other specific belief.

    High MPG results does not require all of ones opinions and ideas to be 100% correct.

    Low MPG results does not require all of ones opinions and ideas to be 100% incorrect.

    Person A with High MPG numbers can still be incorrect while Person B with low MPG numbers can still be correct.

    -------------

    I still like discussing those technical details ... that sometimes might include talking about any number of things... if anybody wants to agree or disagree fine ... no big deal / doesn't matter.

    I have reasons ( including those technical details ) for the opinions I have ... If anybody wants me to have a different opinion they need to do a combination of two things.

    #1>
    Prove errors in the reasons I used to form that specific opinion.

    #2>
    Justify a specific different opinion by offering sound and correct reasons that support that different specific opinion.

    If people do not do this ... then they are not going to change my opinion.



    On the flip side if I point out an error ... or flaw ... or point of disagreement .... with the opinion that someone else offers ... and that other person is not able to explain these errors , flaws , disagreements ... than as far as I am concerned that is still an error / flaw with that person's opinion ... If there are too many errors / mistakes / flaws in a person's opinion ... than as far as I am concerned that opinion is wrong... no matter who it is that expressed that opinion... It doesn't tell me why the opinion is wrong ... and it doesn't tell me much of anything directly about any of that person's other opinions.


    I would still come back to ... so what ... If two people agree or disagree... each can present their case ... sometimes one is wrong and never sees it... sometimes the other is wrong and never sees it... either way they are both trying to offer help and assistance ... and sharing the knowledge they have gained with others.... and sometimes like with cpeter38 a nice informative discussion comes up where everybody benefits.... I learned a bit ... and enjoyed a nice discussion about an issue at the same time... so it doesn't matter if we agree or not.

    As long as both sides continue with the process with an open mind and work in the details ... the disagreement can be more fruitful and beneficial than the agreement would have been... as each side explains what they think is an error ... and maybe then learns something when that error is pointed out ... or maybe the person claiming the error learns something when the other person counters with an explanation that explains that issue and why it is actually not an error, or doesn't apply, etc ... everybody wins. :woot:
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  12. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    I'm going to interject my experience with Pulse and Glide.

    It's two miles of residential roads to the interstate - PSL 35.

    I got as good as 100mpg, until I tried P&G - then it was a routine 150mpg at that point.

    This is on a 5-speed 2000 Insight, and I need the freeway to recover the SoC afterwards, but occasional P&G definitely works for me.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  13. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Iamian:

    ___From the above, I would say you possibly suck at achieving decent results or are afraid to post your tanks? Months of posts about experiments and no tanks lead to the obvious question... How have you been doing with multiple years of experimentation? I drove a total of 36,000 Insight miles and kind of figured it out. I hope you are performing to the 100 + mpg per tank level all summer long now but given your evasiveness, only you can tell us.

    ___At the end of the day, if you are a poor, average or good driver striving to be an even better one, I can try and help you. If you are a poor driver striving to maintain a poor lmpg while hiding behind the cover of academia, I cannot help you and neither can anyone else... The choice is yours.

    ___Who should you learn to drive from? A poor driver with a book in his hands or a decent driver with the aptitude for results and has trained tens of thousands of others to achieve the same excellent results?

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  14. R.I.D.E.

    R.I.D.E. Well-Known Member

    On the last two pages page I read of two instances where battery levels are depleted to get mileage. The contradicts the previous statements by the same parties about battery usage and maximum mileage.

    Average speeds of 25-26 MPH.

    Coming back from the short vacation we went 700 feet in 30 minutes, because my brother in law decided to take the that route after hearing the radio warning about the typical 7 mile afternoon HRBT backup. They even block the last two entrances when it gets backed up to keep people from jumping in the line.

    I relaxed in the back seat and nodded off.

    The devil is in the details, and we are all free to make choices and basically have the same goals to achieve a balance of economy, safety and reasonable times to get from point A to B.

    Maybe you like to do so at 25 MPH. Personally I wouldn't live in an area where that was necessary. In many cases when I had to work for a living, my commute was less than 5 minutes each way. When it was longer I was going against the majority of the traffic flow.

    My gas for the last few months has been free. Fair compensation for being a Caretaker, freely offered and gratefully accepted.

    My family consumption has dropped by close to 75% over the last 3 years.

    They got 128 MPG in an Opel Wagon in 1970 averaging 26 mph, so that's nothing new.

    Enjoyed the discussion IamIam, I come here to contribute, in spite of what I read from some who don't seem to like the message.

    I also enjoy helping people resolve issues with their vehicles when I feel my 30 years of practical experience working on cars might be of assistance, and try to explain things in a way that is easy to understand.

    If you want to kill the messenger because you don't like the message, the power to do so is at the tip of your fingers. ;)

    I could care less.

    regards
    gary
     
  15. Right Lane Cruiser

    Right Lane Cruiser Penguin of Notagascar

    Chuck -- the Calpod switch should help with the SoC hit. Also, it is still effective if you pulse at almost the point at which assist will kick in. When I leave my house in the morning (with a cold engine) I'm typically between 110 and 128mpg after 0.8mi. No impact to SoC with the switch enabled.

    Without the switch I'm at about 15mpg less without hitting the pack.
     
  16. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    Sean,

    I need more work on the Pulse part and appreciate the tips.


    Since I'm not up to speed on the P&G debate the past couple of pages, I just stated my before/after experience and concluded it works for me, even if I hit 3000 rpms at times. :eek:

    Five years ago, I thought 70mpg on a 5-speed Insight was almost impossible. Instead of questioning it, I expanded my knowledge base until I expect to get better than 70mpg in all city driving.

    May I politely suggest trying/modifiying P&G like many of our members do here? There are too many positive results to dismiss it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2009
  17. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    My son's conventional vehicle ('99 Saturn SL2 5MT) was able to achieve 82 mpg over 11.9 miles while traveling north into a 10-15 mph wind from the WNW. Seems like P&G works for him as well as it does for a hybrid.
     
  18. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry Super MPG Man/god :D

    iamian,
    Wayne brings up an interesting point: What are your results after analyzing the daylights out of all of this? After all, if you are doing better than we are, wouldn't it be selfish to keep the info to yourself? I'm just sayin'.
     
  19. Chuck

    Chuck just the messenger

    "Blinded by Science (Formulas, Graphs without Field Testing)"

    While I was going to deploy this the next time AE deployed his graphs, this might be a good time. Just use your imagination on this one...

    Watch Blinded by Science, then imagine this parody:

    A fuel economy challenge between Wayne vs AE (or other P&G skeptic, played by the Doctor exclaiming "Science!")

    • Video goes between two garages - Wayne's and AE's
    • They take their Prius III's for an extreme FE duel
    • Wayne is effortlessly pegging 99.9mpg on ScanGage
    • Meanwhile, AE is sweating out the tweaks with a network of PCs, plotters, etc in his garage to break 60mpg
    • AE (played by the Doctor) interchanges "Science" with "Graphs" or "Engineering"....Exclaims: "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!" when Wayne does a 100mpg segment....can't even beat him using the tricycle at the start of the video.
     
  20. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi RIDE:

    ___You are not reading the message correctly... The Prius can use the pack if stuck in a stop and crawl and have little choice. Look at that 4-bar SOC hanging for most of the rolling drive. And when it was pulled down, look at the conditions... IMA's are screwed in most of the conditions shown above unfortunately as the hundreds of start/stops and pack use during any accels will kill it :(

    ___If 126 mpg at 26 mph is so yesterday's news, you should be doing far better? Additionally, time to get there? If you can drive over people or exceed the speed limits, more power to you but we will not and do not endorse anything of that sort.

    [​IMG]
    2010 Toyota Prius-III from Chicago to Hornell, NY with average road speeds between 55 and 60 mph.

    ___Do you understand the message presented by the pic above? Do not kill said messenger but instead, take what is presented and mimic it to save fuel in the real world.

    ___You drive where you drive and there are tens of millions that drive in exactly the conditions shown. There is no way to move faster than the drivers in front of you as the pics posted show the conditions. At times, speeds were up to 54 mph. At other, 0 mph. 95% of the drivers in the deep mess were in the 3 to 5 mpg range if that. The Prius was in the 100 + range throughout which is why I posted the results in this thread. Every drive no matter if its leaving your drive to the store, work, recreation or other is a continuous pulse and glide of some sort since you start at 0 and finish at 0 with a whole lot of changes in between. Most do not believe this to be the case and choose not to take advantage of the opportunity but it is a fact of life for each and every driver each and every time they turn the key.

    ___The message is reduce your fuel consumption and lower your emissions no matter what you own and drive. Your Insight is worth 150 mpg near peak yet 100 mpg was your guess. Iamian's is worth 200 +. An LMPG in the hundred mpg range should be doable since you can control your drive times and routes! Read, learn, practice and repeat. You will get there and that is the message. Dodging results with a belief of understanding leaves you in a situation that you already know too much and lack the motivation to improve. Not a good situation by any means.

    ___Results are the bottom line. Go achieve them and when you are ready, tell us how they worked out for you. The change of heart will happen as it does for everyone that begins to see 100 + in an Insight or 25, 50, 75 or even 100 + % above EPA in whatever they own and drive. Some will not be able to achieve the same due to route, traffic or distance but in your particular case, 100 mpg is a slam dunk this time of year.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
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