Discussion in 'Honda Hybrids' started by sprintman, Jun 27, 2009.
I agree, the Dunlop SP31's is a terrible tire. Way to noisy and poor handling on all surfaces. Hal
I have never (knock on wood) experienced any poor handling with my Dunlops.
I remember one snowy, icy morning, I watched a BMW, for no apparent reason, just slide around, while mine kept it steady with no issues at all.
You need to take a pic of the tire that shows some depth and detail from one side or the other 1 or 2 degrees.
Over all the tire seems to be wearing almost well. If the car is jacked up at all. Right there seen by all is your neg. camber. It Also looks like the center of the tire is sucked inward a bit. If you run neg. camber it will start buckling the belt's. If this happens you will have areas in the center of the tire that feel like there dipping in and others that feel normal. If your feathering on the edges of the tire it could be tow and caster or tire psi issues.
If your dealer is telling you camber is good and your rear tires look like a Triumph when the car is setting on the ground after a drive. They are full of %hit. I fought my dealer over this and the specs over a sagging left rear spring. I got new rear tire's out of the deal. But I was ready to go to jail over it and let some blood. If you dealer is saying it's good. They don't have the new spec's loaded into there alignment rack.
The 8th gen Civic has a smaller multi arm rear end in it. Just like most Accords form recent history. The basic point of the multilink rear end is the added control of the camber and caster at all but extremes of travel. Thus a reason why Civic owners want multilink front and rear like a Accord. And one Civic Si did get multilink at both ends. The famed 6th gen Civic Si Coupe I think it was. The 7th gen hatch really pissed folks off.
Take no CRAP from Honda if they try to dish it out and your not happy with your tire wear. I dumped my 06 8th gen EX sedan long before Honda even admitted there was a problem with the links. Or that they had screwed up a ton of Coupes built in Canada or the wheel bearing issue.
I am amazed over all how the hybrid owners are not figuring this out until the last year or so. The R-18 owners were all over it within two year's or less of ownership. I was on it within 10 months of ownership and dumped the car over it and other issues at 18 months of ownership. Si folks have there own problems.
Honda is the new GM.
Tire was sitting on the floor...Here's a bit of an angle with a smaller image, and two others. Tires have always appeared to have negative camber - but don't all HCH's?
Cold PSI is 40... It's just strange wear for me, but this is my first Civic!
Not all HCH or R-18 Civics have neg. camber. Only the ones Honda screwed up on.
If you can step back from your car and see the rear tires squatted out relative to the front's you have a issue if your trunk is empty and the car is empty after a short drive.
Look at your car, and then compare it to every modern Accord on the road that does no have a bashed up fender. Accords don't have squatted out tires unless they are lowered and camber kits have not been installed. Heck,,, look at Elements, CRV's and other stock late model Honda products.
If your squatted out on the rear. It needs the new links.
"Not all HCH or R-18 Civics have neg. camber. Only the ones Honda screwed up on."
The Service Manual spec. is a slight negative camber (see my page 2 of thread contrib). Not sure if that goes out the window now, ie: the "corrected" upper control arms get rid of the neg. camber.
Pictures are a pretty good representation of what is seen with the actual tire. Tops of the tires are visibly tilted inward, and I had an alignment from the dealer not tooo long ago. I am surprised at the wear in the center - had to peek at the tires again just to confirm! That's when I noticed the inner tread is actually worn down more than the center treads...outer tread still looks pretty good. I have an appointment on the 31st of this month (my choice - they have a door-ding-removal guy there to remove a pesky door ding for me that day!). We shall see! (when do the 2010 models arrive?)
"That's when I noticed the inner tread is actually worn down more than the center treads"
I'm sorry, but looking at the pictures you posted, the tread wear look pretty uniform. With the various Honda's we've had the inner edge of tread was invariably a bit more worn by the time it was nearing the wear bars, but the difference was not extreme. There's no way you're going to get to the end of your tire's tread life with perfectly uniform wear.
All I can think is if you roll into a dealership and tell them there's a problem with your tread wear, when they look at it they're going to be scratching their heads, at least judging from the posted pics.
"Tops of the tires are visibly tilted inward"
Honda spec's a negative camber. There are a lot of cars on the road with rear wheel negative camber.
Yep! Surprised me when I got down to look at the actual tire!
I was going to mention that too. What really gives a good look is pulling the tire off. Still...
I think you'll have a tough sell with the dealership. Just my 2 cents: considering the mileage they're wearing a little fast, but not bad, and the pics look uniform. Try the Bridgestone Insignia SE200-02 next round?
In my experience I've never seen a wear bar join up uniformly, all the way across the tire, and it's usually the inner side that joins up first. But it's not a lot of difference.
New tires (or a new car!) are probably in my near future. There is a sale on Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max tires...might have to try them!
That is the point! Hondas spec. Here are a few picks of the 06 EX and the 09 HCHII. You can see the rear end squatting out.
Just home from the dealer and it can be seen.
Can be seen.
After I had worked on it and the left side rear spring had been replaces.
Rear squated out with the front on ramps.
Accord straight. and the car got 89K miles on the OEM tires.
HCHII straight at a arrow new.
MSZ straight, and it handles better than any Civic including Si.
I'm pushing 40k miles on that car. It's been hypermiled and driven way hard. I will get 40k milrs out of it's Goodyear RSA's. Most folks struggle to get 20k miles out of them. And they were OEM shorts. Tread bars / wear are very even across the tires.
Sorry for all the pics and the long post. Just look! And for the life of me, I'm way confused at why most of the hybrid drivers are just now catching on to this problem. It has been with Civic from the start!
You can drive like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJBrIuINl6c
Or this way. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqmSO9hX8MM&feature=related
Does not matter. If the rear end is wrong,,,, Your tires wont behave,,, period!
Interesting that the left rear spring was replaced on the HCH...my left rear is visibly lower (when viewed from the rear). And my rear wheels have a very visible tilt inwards. Thanks for pics!!
The spring was replaced on the 06 EX. So far the HCH is good.
So is negative camber necessarily a bad thing? Is this what's screwing up the tires?
Does the "correct" rear upper control arm (the replacement arm some people have been getting, with the letter "C") change the camber, ie: towards neutral or positive camber? In short, is Honda changing the camber spec.?
FWIW, our '06 HCHII still has the OEM rubber on, coming up to 70,000km. Treadware looks reasonably uniform, all tires are around 5~6 32's remaining. The rear control arms are stock, and appear to have some negative camber.
Negative camber is NOT necessarily a bad thing - so long as it is set within the manufactures specifications. I don't know what Honda has for the spec, but if they allow 1.00 degree negative +/- 0.50 degree and your car has 2.0 negative then it's too much.
It's really important to have someone who really understands suspension geometry and it's effects to be working on your car when it comes down to it. A parts monkey just slapping a new part and pushing the car adjustments into the "OK" zone, just doesn't cut it for cars and drivers where such issues are critical for either safety or economy.
As you have all seen - a half done, lazy approach to this will lead to poor drivability in the car, poor tire life and poor economy.
I have spent a total of 5+ hours of real time on the alignment rack with my Blazer trying to find my "perfect" alignment. Granted I am probably being a bit excessive in my quest - but the point is that if your car gets its alignment done in '30 minutes or less' like a pizza delivery, chances are that not much was really done.
Sorry about the rant - suspension happens to be one of my areas and it irritates the heck out of me when people don't take the time to do the job that they are being paid to and expected to do correctly.
Try to get the specs for you car and try to find a shop to do it to "perfect" spec - you may have good luck with a race/fabrication shop, as they have the patience and experience for this.
Neg. Camber is not a bad thing in and of it's self. But 1 is the normal over. 2.5, 3 and more is very bad unless the car is set up for it and a purpose. A daily driver needs no more that 1 degree and even less at times. And once your use to looking at and for it. You can see 0 to 3 with the naked eye.
FWD cars don't use the rear wheels like a RWD car. I went through my notes concerning the 06 Civic EX and found that it was so called in spec after the left rear spring replacement of 2.5 on one wheel to 2.75 degrees on the other. I fought with those SOB's to the point it all most came to blows. This was long before Honda admitted there was a problem.
Hard core hypermilers want a complete neutral setup. 0 toe, 0 camber and lets not even get into caster. That gives them the best when it comes to rolling resistance. I want a tad of camber and a tick of toe in at the very min. I want the suspension preloaded. Yeah,,,, it may cost me .25 mpg and 5k miles over all on my tire life. But I want the car to turn in as well as it can. And I want to front and rear to work together. And the fact is a preloaded system last much longer than a rattling neutral setup. Your struts, tie rods and other pivot points last much long if there under a slight load. They wear to it.
Hondas basic multilink system works great when set up right. Civic has a basic multiling in the rear and junk up front. Which upsets a lot of Civic owners. And a prize jewel is the one Civic Si that got it front and back. Those are the cars Civic owner's hunt for.
Bottom line Honda's spec is as fluid as there links. You can buy after market links, have them installed and tell the alignment folks,,,, this is how I Want It Done! But it all starts with.... Can you see it. And what does a trusted alignment tech and rack tell you.
Psyshack and NervousMini, thanks for the tutorials. I'm (obviously) just a layman on the subject.
NervousMini, FYI I've posted the rear camber spec on page 2: the spec. in one posting, and the tolerance for that spec. in a second posting. This is from the Service Manual, and I'm not sure if this value has been subsequently changed by Honda, with the introduction of "C" rear upper control arms.
I went to the Toyota dealer and test drove a 2010 Prius today - I'm just saying that when you reach a certain frustration point...
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