New Ford Escape Hybrid – Glide technique…

Discussion in 'Ford Hybrids' started by xcel, Jun 27, 2008.

  1. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Yikes... Sorry I torqued everyone up.... There is a good reason that this hasn't been published that hasn't been raised... Dan is a lazy SOB. I've been busy tinkering with the Camry and bit banging on XGauge. I'm way past due to put pen to paper. Funny part is I found the tread on from my EGO google alert. Got a hit on "Dan Bryant". Google is kind enough to mail me whenever my name is posted anywhere.... go google go...

    I'll see If I can't get something slapped together soon..... I was asked to get this done earlier this week... my bad...

    DGE Teaser​


    Anyway... The method is not anything new, I just started using it to show novice pilots how to work full hybrids. The method is called .... drum roll please.... Delayed Glide Entry or DGE for the acronym inclined. It works in all the Toyota and Ford Hybrids and it's nothing really surprising... The neat part is how well it works in the FEH. Here's the method.

    For the FEH there are two DGE methods. DGE from Drive or D-DGE, and DGE from Neutral or N-DGE.

    D-DGE - This method works from 20 mph to 30 mph. The basic idea is once you hit 30 from D, you come fully off the gas, and wait 3000 ms then shift to Neutral. About 300 ms later the ICE cuts out and you transition into a NICE-off glide. I started using this when I noticed it happen by accident a few times. I hooked up my gauges and started testing how man MPH I loose in a double-tap glide entry, a D-DGE, and a LGE glide entry. Of them all, I found that DGE loss the least amount of speed (almost tied). Now fuel cut should be in effect during the 3000 ms delay so your actually at 9999 MPG from the moment your foot is off the gas. So to recap:
    1. Accel up to 30.00 mph in Drive "D".
    2. Take your foot all the way off the gas
    3. Watch the TACH and count "one-one-thousand... two-one-thousand... three-one-thousand...". By the time you get to "three-one-th..." you should see the TACH hickup.
    4. Once you get the hickup on the TACH, slam it into neutral.
    5. Glide down to the desired pulse entry speed.
    6. Rense and repeat...

    N-DGE - This method works from 10 mph to 20 mph. The basic idea is once you hit 20 from D then shift to Neutral. About 300 ms later the ICE cuts out and you transition from a NICE-on to a NICE-off glide. I found this out tooling around the parking lots. I always make liberal use of NICE-on glides during warm-ups on Toyotas, so it was just a habit I had failed to break driving the MMH. Well a few times, I looked down and notice the engine had cut out while I was in Neutral.... Clever car! So to recap:
    1. Accel up to 20.00 mph in Drive "D".
    2. Shift into Neutral
    3. Watch the TACH and count "one-one-thousand... two-one-thousand... three-one-thousand...". By the time you get to "three-one-th..." you should see the TACH hickup.
    4. Once you get the hickup the ICE will cut from Neutral
    5. Glide down to the desired pulse entry speed.
    6. Rense and repeat...

    For the Toyota's only D-DGE works, and it's sometimes the only way to get a Camry or HiHy to glide with anything less than a high SoC... The Toyota's will also allow D-DGE all the way up to 40 mph.

    I'll put more meat into a bigger writeup but this should get you going. Now under 10mph I just EV, and over 30 you have to use LGA or double-tap exclusively. I find the numbers are very good for a pulse band of 15-30 using D-DGE for the glides. As you get really good at it you can shift at about "three-on..." instead of "three-one-th.." and get a few milliseconds on the cycle. I don't think the TACH needs to complete it's hicup, it just needs to get through the "hic..." part of it.

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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2008
  2. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Dan:

    ___Thank You :)

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  3. hobbit

    hobbit He who posts articles

    What I can't understand about any of this is why Ford went and
    made it so convoluted. With the Prius, you take your foot off
    the pedal, and you get ICE shutdown and glide, nothing to it.
    Why all this fancy foot and hand work is necessary in the FEH
    is just idiotic, whether it's FS or DBT or DGE or XYZ or whatever.
    Why can't the thing just read the driver request and do the
    right thing as it comes?
    .
    Of course Toyota has its share of stupid little bugs too, like
    the whole idle-check-to-enter-stage-4 thing, but I find the amount
    of mystery and controversy whirling around the FEH just plain
    irritating.
    .
    _H*
     
  4. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Al:

    ___One of my few disappointments with Ford's FEH also generates similar sentiments with regards to the HiHy and TCH. Auto-gliding either of those and you will pull your hair out :( The Prius just does it (other than that darn S1 through S4) whereas the rest you have to fiddle and fuddle with them to make them do what you want vs. what they want :)

    ___Gary, CleanMPG has everything to do with getting drivers up the ladder to much higher fuel economy quickly for the betterment of all.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  5. DebbieKatz

    DebbieKatz ФЕХ Царйца

    Thanks Dan - this is great :) :)

    I've been playing with the D-DGE quite a bit on my commutes since I got home from IN. What seems to work best for me is to accelerate to 31mph (i.e., the speedometer needle has just cleared the 30mph hash-mark) before taking my foot off the gas. Then as the tach needle starts to drop, then hesitates, I shift to N & by the time the tach needle drops completely I'm right at 30mph - this gives me more time to glide, especially if I'm in traffic :)

    And yes, while the LGA still has it's place in the FEH repertoire, I like the DGE better for in-traffic driving because you can use it without the sudden loss of speed that shifting to low gear causes :)

    One of the other things I've learned is that DGE works even better while keeping some charge in the battery, so that when you pulse, less of that energy is drawn into the HV battery. Towards the end of my commute to work, I have to climb from the lake-shore to the top of the bluff above the lake, which always made my FE drop off without enough of the trip left to "pay it back" :mad: Using DGE, I conserve enough charge in my HV battery to climb the entire hill in EV :) :) :)

    At 302mi., my FCD is at 51.2mpg; my SGII tank average shows 50.5mpg - either way, I'm almost half-way to another 50mpg+ tank :) :) :) :)

    Gary & Rich, you have to check this out :)
     
  6. rdprice64

    rdprice64 Still Learning

    I tried this again last night and found that I didn't need to count to three-one-thousand or watch for the Tachometer hiccup, because the Instant MPG on the sgii would indicate going EV by jumping above 120 MPG prior to the hiccup or the "three-". So please see if this is true for you too.

    At 312mi., my FCD is above 40 for the first time ever :D, this far into a tank; my sgii tank average is at 43.8, also the highest ever this far into a tank!

    I'm not driving as much right now (biking+busing more), but that is giving me time to "noodle" on how this is working without getting frustrated by it.

    Keep climbing!
    - Rob
     
  7. xcel

    xcel PZEV, there's nothing like it :) Staff Member

    Hi Rob:

    ___With your own observations, DGE is sounding better all the time!

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne
     
  8. DebbieKatz

    DebbieKatz ФЕХ Царйца

    That's great Rob :) :)

    I'll have to remember to watch my SGII. I did notice that on the NAV I get a little advance notice because the engine icon loses its orange outline, meaning the ICE is shutting down - so many places to watch, & for only a split second :D

    By the way, kudos to you for your use of bike & bus :) I've taken to running errands on my bike & my FEH usually stays in the garage all weekend. My biggest problem is that when I go grocery shopping, I'm always over-estimating the capacity of my backpack :p
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2008
  9. CarlD

    CarlD Well-Known Member

    Well, I certainly hope something more is coming on this. DGE as so far described is nothing new, something that I and I assume most others have observed many times. As far as this replacing or even reducing double-taps and LGA, you are completely missing the point of these methods. LGA is used primarily as an SOC builder when needed. Double-tap is primarily used as a method to turn off the ICE when nothing else works! If you do the double-tap carefully, the speed loss will not be significantly different than simply coasting in D. For those of us stuck with hot HV batteries, DGE will not work. It (and also LGA) will also not work if MxC is decreasing or at zero, although it never stays at zero for very long. As far as the LGA, I have driven 05 through 08 FEHs and can tell you the LGA is different in all of them. The SoC boost from the LGA in an 08 is significantly reduced from my late-build 2005. And as far as speeds of 30 MPH and less, EV is hard to beat with P&G, although it can certainly be done if no else is near you. In the traffic I drive in, P&G is not really an option. As far a N coasting, for long distances it can actually force the FEH into warm-up mode when shifted back in D. I have noticed this at drive-throughs even with outside temps in the upper 90's! I don't know if anyone else has observed this, but it has happened enough that I know it is not a fluke.

    Also, Debbie are you still using your EBH? What is your typical SoC when you park for the night? Does your Tav ever get above 85F?
     
  10. rdprice64

    rdprice64 Still Learning

    For me, so far the difference is not losing as much momentum on the way to EV. Therefore I keep more SoC and stay in EV longer between pulses. Perhaps I am not applying LGA and Double Tap properly, so this may be an alternate method for those who are not as good at those two methods?

    Luckily, one or more of my kids will usually go with me and we divide the load between the multiple backpacks. I've been trying to convince the family to get a 3 wheel bike that has the basket in between the two back wheels. My grandmother had one and it was great for the grocery store runs.

    I'm sure we were quite the sight the other night, riding back from Pizza Hut with P'Zones in the backpacks and 2 pizza boxes on my handlebars :eek:
     
  11. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    Agreed... and I've said as much as well. What's new is to actually name it and look at what parameters effect it. I guess knowing that a stick can dig a whole is not the same as having a whole digging stick. ;) The main reason I formed a method around DGE was so I could teach hypermiling to people that have never done it. It's how I coach people in the Prius and Camry as well. Simpler for them to eat a second of regen than fiddling with the pedal for the magic spot. The new part is that even though I consider myself a capable hypermiler, I could never make LGA or double-tap a more efficient glide entry method than D-DGE.
    I'd always seen LGA and double-tap listed as the primary glide entry methods, not the secondary. That's why I was intrigued that no writeup (that I found) listed D-DGE (or call it "in gear coasting") as preferred method for glide entry.
    I find D-DGE about 65% more efficient than double-tap. D-DGE can be done with a loss of only 1 MPH (from the time you end your pulse to the time your ICE is off), double-tap always eats at least 3 MPH for me, same with LGA. I believe that you might be able to get double-tap or LGA down to 1.5 but I'm not sure that I could ever execute it without loosing at least 1-2 MPH. For me.... D-DGE is more efficient by a fair margin.
    I believe warm-up cold be triggered if the ICE temp drops too much. Hadn't experienced much of the rest.
    Coming from a Toyota mindset, I alway seen assist and regen cycles lossy and try to stay out of them as much as driver control allows. But that may just be my Toyota training. My thoughts were always that the round trip regen to EV cycle being (at best) 51% efficient, so if you could just keep the energy in the wheels instead of forcing it through the regen to EV cycle, it looks to me like staying out of the pack would be best.

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  12. CarlD

    CarlD Well-Known Member

    Dan,

    I did not intend to denigrate your work in any way, shape, or form if that is what it came across as. The more people looking for ways to improve the FEH FE, the better, especially one as adept at FE as yourself. But after the first few posts on this topic, I guess I was expecting something akin to cold fusion. Presently I am fighting the 110F weather that makes hypermiling the FEH so difficult. Often times the double-tap in N is the only way to turn off the ICE, and sometimes even that doesn't work and I am forced to FAS when stopped at a light, since I never FAS when moving. But since my morning commute includes three backset passengers, I simply hit the 45MPH roads with the A/C going and save the hypermiling sweatlodge for the last mile. It will be two months at least before I can expect to put up some good FE numbers.
     
  13. rdprice64

    rdprice64 Still Learning

    Hi CarlD,

    Is that a personal choice? Or is there a problem FASing the FEH when moving? I thought that since it is flat towable that it was an acceptable manuever :confused:

    Thanks,
    -Rob
     
  14. Dan

    Dan KiloTanked in post 153451

    No offense taken. I couldn't have gotten my SGIIx functioning with your help as well. I've been a bit gaurded in tone since there were some crossed words earlier in this thread.
    I don't think rocking the key off in the FEH would be a FAS. I'd call it a DSG. The difference is that a FAS is recoverable, a DSG is not. Once you go from On to Off in the FEH the only way to get back to On is through Park. I use DSG a fair amount in most of my cars, but usually can find a way around it.

    11011011
     
  15. rdprice64

    rdprice64 Still Learning

    I think I do FAS my FEH. As I leave my driveway I climb a small hill and then have about 1/2 mile downhill, so I shift to N, key off, key back on to position 2 (to get my steering back), than I key start at the point where I start uphill again. If I'm slower than 6 mph, than I do have to go to Park to restart. Doesn't that fit the definition of a FAS?
     
  16. DebbieKatz

    DebbieKatz ФЕХ Царйца

    Hi Vooch --

    I've only seen EV at 40mph a few times, & I've never been sure what I did to get it :p

    And thanks for the suggestion for my new title :D :D
     
  17. GaryG

    GaryG Well-Known Member

    Thanks Dan for the new named technique and I give it a ten out of ten myself. Sorry if I acted a little pis*** off at first, but any new ideas or techniques should be shared ASAP with todays gas prices. The D-DGE has been added to my bag of tricks and I'm seeing some impressive numbers I've never experienced in hot weather, flat roads and E-10. I thought my 50mpg tanks were gone forever with E-10, but now I'm back in the game thanks to you.

    The '05 FEH can be restarted in "N" over 6mph, but I don't recommend it. The '09 Owner Manual even tells you not to shut your vehicle Off or On while moving now. The manual also now states you will void your engine warranty if you use any other oil than approved 5-20W. I think their speaking to those who are using 0-20W oil myself. Ford also says in the '09 manual they can retrieve driving history. Ford didn't use the term "Black Box", but that sounds like what they've done in the PCM.

    The '09 FEH/MMH can accelerate to 40mph in EV now much easier, but the computer will start the ICE like Wayne mentioned before at that speed. The D-DGE should work much better in the '09 because of a number of reasons. Ford as gone to a more aggressive fuel cut on decel, the ICE will shutdown twice as much and at speed below 40mph without the double tap or "L" gear. I'm expecting my '09 within a few weeks to verify what I've been reading.

    Here is a copy of the '09 Manual:
    http://www.motorcraftservice.com/pubs/content/~WO9HEV/~MUS~LEN/41/09hevog1e.pdf

    GaryG
     
  18. DebbieKatz

    DebbieKatz ФЕХ Царйца


    Hi Carl --

    I'm sorry if we had you hoping for more than you got, but this was a definite break-through for me :) As I've written before, I'm not of an analytical turn of mind (musician, librarian, lover of cats - logic does not live in my head ;)), so I haven't contributed much to the ways of the FEH. But I've studied & tried to put into practice what others have learned - & the DGE as it was presented to me was completely new :eek:

    I knew about the tach bounce as a pre-EV indicator, but I had read about it it GaryG's article where he writes about getting it at ~40mph & shifting to N to go EV. Taking that rather literally, I had one place along my commute where that would be possible, & I could never get it to happen - even when I shifted into N, I still got arrows on my energy-flow screen & the tach would spin back up again. At this point in my trip, I'm coming down off our harbor bridge (think the Blues Brothers movie) to a potential stop & a definite decrease in speed from 50mph to 30mph, so I suspect that the HV battery is simply too full for this to work :eek: So I gave up trying to P&G :(

    Then, at HF2007, Gary let me ride along & observe as he drove my FEH in the MPG Challenge. One of the things he showed me was to keep the SoC in the HV battery low, so that when the ICE came on, using the LGA would send more regen to the HV battery as well as return to EV. For the past year I've been using that technique - whenever the ICE comes on, I'd pulse up 5-10mi., then shift to L to go back to EV If you look at my mileage log postings you'll see the improvement in my FE - that's also when I started seeing >50mpg on my commutes :) :)

    Then Dan showed me DGE last month, & it worked for me right away :) It doesn't *replace* the LGA & the double-tap (which I've never been able to master :confused:), but it's new to my *personal* toolbox & is already making a big difference :) :)

    I do have to say that I probably have the perfect commute for this vehicle - one of these days I'll have to post specifics of the trip & how I'm able to use what I've learned from everyone here to get the FE I do :) And, here in Milwaukee, along Lake Michigan, extreme high temps are not generally a problem :), so the climate is largely not a problem either :)

    I always park my FEH for the night with a very low SoC, but actually, I don't have the X-gauges yet - I haven't been willing to give up my SGII for re-programming :D And after reading GaryG's remarks about having 2 of them, I want to get a second one - I just need to come up with a reason to give my husband for why I need one *more* thing to look at besides the road :D :D
     
  19. CarlD

    CarlD Well-Known Member

    As an EE making RFIC's and MMIC's for things ranging from Patriot missles to cell phones and cars (had supplier pricing from GM when the EV1 was still around), I know supply transients are killers for electrical and electronic devices. I have just chosen not to subject those in my FEH to anymore than necessary. Probably over reactive on my part, but so be it. Also, in my driving environment there usually isn't much benefit to it over other techniques.
     
  20. rdprice64

    rdprice64 Still Learning

    Thank you both. I'm going to stop FASing and work harder on my EV entry instead.
     

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